No Idea!!
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Have to disagree with the point that 'clubs' can not produce a CPL standard equivalent to the larger training organisations. I was fortunate enough to have done my training with a 'club' (YRED). After spending time working in and out of most of the larger GA airports and seeing the quality of CPL's turned out by some of the 'sasuage factory' organisations I am quite happy that my training was as good, if not better than what is being turned out from YMMB, YBSK, YPJT etc.
The advantage of my training was that the CFI took a substantial interest in the end product. He was conscious of the fact that what was turned out was a direct reflection of him and his training standard (thanks Rob!). In contrast to some of the other posters I would advise 'gonnabes' to seek out the smaller organisations - particularly if they have a small charter/joyflight setup (it's all exposure for your first job).
WRT the point of attracting 'experienced' pilots back to instructing - as a 1500TT, 1200ME, Twin training approved, GR3 instructor who has spent most of his time as a charter pilot - I would love to move back to a capital city to do some instructing. But, after making enquires to just about every training organisation in the land I have been unable to find one who is even slightly interested! It would seem that the 200h CPL/Gr3 is flavour of the month.
The advantage of my training was that the CFI took a substantial interest in the end product. He was conscious of the fact that what was turned out was a direct reflection of him and his training standard (thanks Rob!). In contrast to some of the other posters I would advise 'gonnabes' to seek out the smaller organisations - particularly if they have a small charter/joyflight setup (it's all exposure for your first job).
WRT the point of attracting 'experienced' pilots back to instructing - as a 1500TT, 1200ME, Twin training approved, GR3 instructor who has spent most of his time as a charter pilot - I would love to move back to a capital city to do some instructing. But, after making enquires to just about every training organisation in the land I have been unable to find one who is even slightly interested! It would seem that the 200h CPL/Gr3 is flavour of the month.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Brisbane Australia
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Aussiebert you wanted to hear an average student pilot out
actually i've heard at least a dozen, i'm an average student pilot myself, and spend a lot of time with other student pilots
While i agree with a lot of whats been said in this thread, i know i started out as a very nieve 17yr old, as did most of my fellow students. Beofre 'discovering' things like pprune, there really was no way for us to know what we should be doing. We've all made mistakes along the way, but at the end of it all we've leart a lot. Still heaps to learn of course.
If someone is determined enough they will make it though training, i've noticed that from when i started to where i am now, theres probobly only half of us still going. The simple fact of the matter is we have no basis for comparison in regards to the quality of our training
As part of the course i do, we fly with a minimum of grade 2's, which is good and well but the grade 2's we fly with were still training when we all started our course.
Do you really need a guy with charter experience to teach you ops of controls, circuits, etc? Not in my opinion.
I beleive if your being trained as a commercial pilot, you should be trained by someone with experience in that feild. Same goes for Twin and IFR flying.
I don't mind giving a 200hr guy the chance to train me, as long as its something simple. After all in the not too distant future i'll be out there trying to get a job, and i think what goes around comes around.
Back to the topic, sure a lot of guys come out with no idea, but is that entirly the fault of the guy with no idea? If he has no idea, how would he know that stuff like having a DG cert, knowing how to change spark plugs, fuelling aircraft, pumping tyres etc is needed?
If there is a bunch of stuff you want people to know, give people the chance to learn. Do you really think an engineer wants a dozen students in his way? not likely
actually i've heard at least a dozen, i'm an average student pilot myself, and spend a lot of time with other student pilots
While i agree with a lot of whats been said in this thread, i know i started out as a very nieve 17yr old, as did most of my fellow students. Beofre 'discovering' things like pprune, there really was no way for us to know what we should be doing. We've all made mistakes along the way, but at the end of it all we've leart a lot. Still heaps to learn of course.
If someone is determined enough they will make it though training, i've noticed that from when i started to where i am now, theres probobly only half of us still going. The simple fact of the matter is we have no basis for comparison in regards to the quality of our training
As part of the course i do, we fly with a minimum of grade 2's, which is good and well but the grade 2's we fly with were still training when we all started our course.
Do you really need a guy with charter experience to teach you ops of controls, circuits, etc? Not in my opinion.
I beleive if your being trained as a commercial pilot, you should be trained by someone with experience in that feild. Same goes for Twin and IFR flying.
I don't mind giving a 200hr guy the chance to train me, as long as its something simple. After all in the not too distant future i'll be out there trying to get a job, and i think what goes around comes around.
Back to the topic, sure a lot of guys come out with no idea, but is that entirly the fault of the guy with no idea? If he has no idea, how would he know that stuff like having a DG cert, knowing how to change spark plugs, fuelling aircraft, pumping tyres etc is needed?
If there is a bunch of stuff you want people to know, give people the chance to learn. Do you really think an engineer wants a dozen students in his way? not likely
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Melbourne
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Well said triadic!!!!!!! You have hit the nail on the head. It is the system that allows grade 3 instructors to work without supervision.
I have been in this industry for 24 years and I have heard how Grade 3 instructors are substandard for the past 24 years. The people who continually say they are substandard are the experience pilots who train them. Remember you are only as good as the training you have received.
Forget about CASA helping !!!!! there just a government sycophant that does what they are told and at present they are not interested in training standards of grade 3 instructors.
Stormywx..... well said and good luck with your career.
I have been in this industry for 24 years and I have heard how Grade 3 instructors are substandard for the past 24 years. The people who continually say they are substandard are the experience pilots who train them. Remember you are only as good as the training you have received.
Forget about CASA helping !!!!! there just a government sycophant that does what they are told and at present they are not interested in training standards of grade 3 instructors.
Stormywx..... well said and good luck with your career.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
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How would you be in a position to judge that? Have you had flight tests under old and new systems? CPL and Instructor tests used to be conducted by " the department" in it's various forms not by in house testing officers who have a vested interest in passing company trained pilots.
Constantly? You mean after 12 months as a Grade 3 then every two years. Hmmmmmm
Whell thats it for now ,Instructor rateings are being used as an aid purley too get hours up for that first job,thats where the problem lies,
Thanks for the comments too, its good to get feedback.
stormy
Join Date: Sep 2002
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You all miss the point about Grade 3 Instructors. OK there is no doubt that a commercial pilot should know their stuff with regards to there own flying and a Grade 3 instructor should know the content to be passed on, BUT experience is everything, and unfortunatly here in Australia the Instructor rating is seen by many a club/school as a money making exercise and the standard of instructor course varies greatly between them.
Just as in any other Profession Instructing/Teaching/Tutoring and training skills takes time to develop. Unfortunately Instructors are not around long enough to become Professional Instructors and so the poor old Grade 3 who wants to be a Professional Instructor misses out, why you ask, well why would an organisation want Instructors to stay on when the hint of a job attracts so many Instructor hour building wannabes? MONEY MONEY MONEY!
I myself am a Grade 3 Instructor who got lured away to the bush to fly charter because my aspirations align with becoming a full-time Professional Instructor. Oh no you don't want Airlines, I here you say, thats right meet someone who just loves passing on experience and knowledge. I believe that Grade 3 Instructors do set the right example, do pass on the right knowledge and demonstrate correct flight techniques, however polishing the stone takes time.
Just as in any other Profession Instructing/Teaching/Tutoring and training skills takes time to develop. Unfortunately Instructors are not around long enough to become Professional Instructors and so the poor old Grade 3 who wants to be a Professional Instructor misses out, why you ask, well why would an organisation want Instructors to stay on when the hint of a job attracts so many Instructor hour building wannabes? MONEY MONEY MONEY!
I myself am a Grade 3 Instructor who got lured away to the bush to fly charter because my aspirations align with becoming a full-time Professional Instructor. Oh no you don't want Airlines, I here you say, thats right meet someone who just loves passing on experience and knowledge. I believe that Grade 3 Instructors do set the right example, do pass on the right knowledge and demonstrate correct flight techniques, however polishing the stone takes time.
