Accident at Shellharbour

[Centaurus]

I recall watching a Cherokee Lance taking off from Essendon 35 into a 25 knot HW. Even when taxying it had an uncomfortably nose up attitude. It got airborne nose up and barely climbed so I guessed it was close to the aft CG limit. In the case of the crashed aircraft if it had got airborne prematurely in those gusty conditions it wouldn't take much to stall one wing with no hope of recovery. A similar accident ocurred in strong gusty wind conditions to a Cessna 152 at Baachus Marsh earlier this year

[Squawk7700]

Originally Posted by Centaurus

I recall watching a Cherokee Lance taking off from Essendon 35 into a 25 knot HW. Even when taxying it had an uncomfortably nose up attitude. It got airborne nose up and barely climbed so I guessed it was close to the aft CG limit. In the case of the crashed aircraft if it had got airborne prematurely in those gusty conditions it wouldn't take much to stall one wing with no hope of recovery. A similar accident ocurred in strong gusty wind conditions to a Cessna 152 at Baachus Marsh earlier this year

I saw one in Melbourne a couple of weeks ago. It had 5 POB and it was on more of an angle than some tail draggers. The tail-skid was literally 20cm off the ground, however once they apply power it drops down to a more pilot-friendly level.

[aroa]

Having experienced an elevator trim cable break on take off , T tail Lance, it reared up like a shot duck, I pushed the stick forward and reduced the power so it could be held level ok. On inspection, once back on the ground, incorrect rigging in the electric drive unit had caused the cable to rub on itself. Under the break area was a little rats nest of bits of cable strands. Obviously never been looked at being under the rear plastic bulkhead. Just first flight after a 100 hrly.!

[PiperCameron]

Originally Posted by aroa

Having experienced an elevator trim cable break on take off , T tail Lance, it reared up like a shot duck, I pushed the stick forward and reduced the power so it could be held level ok. On inspection, once back on the ground, incorrect rigging in the electric drive unit had caused the cable to rub on itself. Under the break area was a little rats nest of bits of cable strands. Obviously never been looked at being under the rear plastic bulkhead. Just first flight after a 100 hrly.!

Unfortunately, given the current shortage of spanner-operators in this country and with those that remain drowning in work, sometimes a procedure here or there gets missed - especially if it's in a difficult/impossible to access location, like up on a T-tail. Although a lot of stuff on your average Piper is difficult to access, fortunately, unlike some other aircraft we know, that tends to be "scare the stuffing out of you" rather than "you're going to die and there's nothing you can do about it".

Fly safe!

[aroa]

This wasn’t up in the T tail, in the fuse. A inspection hole was cut in the plastic so it could easily be checked any time.
I got a bollocking for that, interfering with the structural integrity etc.. !!..I had a good laugh at that. The crap plastic has the integrity of a digestive biscuit.
So, back to the issue of the post…why this one rose up and fell to earth wrongly.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Originally Posted by aroa

Having experienced an elevator trim cable break on take off , T tail Lance, it reared up like a shot duck, I pushed the stick forward and reduced the power so it could be held level ok. On inspection, once back on the ground, incorrect rigging in the electric drive unit had caused the cable to rub on itself. Under the break area was a little rats nest of bits of cable strands. Obviously never been looked at being under the rear plastic bulkhead. Just first flight after a 100 hrly.!

Which is why we have disabled our Piper electric trims.

[Capt Fathom]

Originally Posted by Charlie Foxtrot India

Which is why we have disabled our Piper electric trims.

So treat the symptom, not the cause? Surely Piper have a fix…. they still build new Pipers!

[PiperCameron]

Originally Posted by Capt Fathom

So treat the symptom, not the cause? Surely Piper have a fix…. they still build new Pipers!

They do.. it's called proper installation.

Given most Pipers in Australia are many, many decades old now and autopilot tech has come a long way from the old 'Autocontrol III', the issue aroa is likely referring to is related to an aftermarket trim installation - it could even be the 3rd or 4th 'upgrade'? That's generally when stuff happens. Someone too lazy/busy to properly clean up after themselves.

[Clare Prop]

Originally Posted by PiperCameron

They do.. it's called proper installation.

Given most Pipers in Australia are many, many decades old now and autopilot tech has come a long way from the old 'Autocontrol III', the issue aroa is likely referring to is related to an aftermarket trim installation - it could even be the 3rd or 4th 'upgrade'? That's generally when stuff happens. Someone too lazy/busy to properly clean up after themselves.

There are some very old pipers that stil have the original electric trim installation. Made of "unobtanium", you can't get the parts to fix them so is safer to disable the electric part and just trim them manually.

[PiperCameron]

Here's the link to the ATSB investigation: https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...rt/ao-2025-064

The ATSB is investigating a collision with terrain involving a Piper PA-32-300 aircraft, registered VH-JVA, at Shellharbour Airport, New South Wales, on 11 October 2025.

Shortly after take-off, the aircraft collided with terrain at the end of the intersecting runway and was destroyed. The 3 occupants were fatally injured.

[junior.VH-LFA]

You Tube

[PiperCameron]

So.. from what the ATSB have found so far, this tragedy makes no sense at all.

[Checklist Charlie]

Safety vests airside???
Not the ATSB apparently.

CC

[bentleg]

ATSB have issed the Preliminary Report - https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...rt/ao-2025-064

This event is most unusual and we don't seem to be any wiser. A medical episode perhaps?

[Squawk7700]

Originally Posted by bentleg

ATSB have issed the Preliminary Report - https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...rt/ao-2025-064

This event is most unusual and we don't seem to be any wiser. A medical episode perhaps?

I thought we all agreed as armchair experts that the engine was NOT delivering power based on the prop, but seems we may not have been correct. Perhaps it was delivering “some” power.

[PiperCameron]

Originally Posted by Squawk7700

I thought we all agreed as armchair experts that the engine was NOT delivering power based on the prop, but seems we may not have been correct. Perhaps it was delivering “some” power.

Some..all.. none.. that'll be up to the real experts to work out, I guess. All they're saying at the minute about that is "ground scars consistent with propeller strikes were indicative of engine rotation".

I haven't heard anyone mention the Cessna Caravan lining up and the Lance taking off "about a minute after the Cessna departed". Maybe wake turbulence spooked him?

[Lookleft]

I haven't heard anyone mention the Cessna Caravan lining up and the Lance taking off "about a minute after the Cessna departed". Maybe wake turbulence spooked him?

Probably because the wake turbulence generated by a Caravan is not worth mentioning, unless of course you don't understand wake turbulence.

[aroa]

With the wind, and runway in use did the wake turbulence, wing tip vortices linger near the strip.? 1 minute might be ok for a smaller aircraft ? I’ve seen the result of a BAC 111 depart on a calm morning and some 10 minutes later a PilatusPorter took off and when barely airborne, got sharply rolled to buckle the wing and terminate the further flight !

[Lead Balloon]

I thought LL's point at #97 was quite clear. Wake turbulence from a Cessna Caravan? Gimme a break. And it was blowing a gale.

[John Kasuku]

Originally Posted by aroa

With the wind, and runway in use did the wake turbulence, wing tip vortices linger near the strip.? 1 minute might be ok for a smaller aircraft ? I’ve seen the result of a BAC 111 depart on a calm morning and some 10 minutes later a PilatusPorter took off and when barely airborne, got sharply rolled to buckle the wing and terminate the further flight !

Ten minutes? Sorry that cannot be correct in any universe that I am aware of. Not even for an A380 on a dead calm day. And as others have said, a Caravan might briefly create a problem for an ultralight but never for a Lance.

I cannot conjure up any rational scenario for the flight path in the photos other than mechanical failure or breakage of some sort. If a strong rotor hit the aircraft just after takeoff and the aircraft started to roll right as it pitched up, control input was made to roll left to correct it but then for some reason remained locked, unable to be reversed, the aircraft would continue to roll left as shown. Even if the controls were returned to neutral, if the left wing was approaching a stall at the published 60 kts, with the bank angle already in play the right wing could potentially continue to roll the plane to the left as shown.

But I'm not a Lance driver so I would defer to anyone with more knowledge who finds holes in my theorising.