Virgin Australia + MCC
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2019
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From: Perth WA
Virgin Australia + MCC
Hello all,
Does anyone know if Virgin Australia specifically VARA allows people to apply without MCC, on the grounds of successful recruitment where applicant agrees to attain MCC prior to start date
Does anyone know if Virgin Australia specifically VARA allows people to apply without MCC, on the grounds of successful recruitment where applicant agrees to attain MCC prior to start date
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 151
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From: Aus
This introduction of the MCC is a total nonsense.
If you successfully complete a type rating for a multi-crew airplane, how on earth can you not be considered qualified or competent in multi-crew operations??
No one should be paying for an MCC course because an airline’s flight department is too lazy to write a type rating course or induction sim program that won’t provide you with the qualification.
If you successfully complete a type rating for a multi-crew airplane, how on earth can you not be considered qualified or competent in multi-crew operations??
No one should be paying for an MCC course because an airline’s flight department is too lazy to write a type rating course or induction sim program that won’t provide you with the qualification.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,118
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From: overthere
This introduction of the MCC is a total nonsense.
If you successfully complete a type rating for a multi-crew airplane, how on earth can you not be considered qualified or competent in multi-crew operations??
No one should be paying for an MCC course because an airline’s flight department is too lazy to write a type rating course or induction sim program that won’t provide you with the qualification.
If you successfully complete a type rating for a multi-crew airplane, how on earth can you not be considered qualified or competent in multi-crew operations??
No one should be paying for an MCC course because an airline’s flight department is too lazy to write a type rating course or induction sim program that won’t provide you with the qualification.
As you say a type rating course is much better than wasting time and money in a fixed based sim on a type you know nothing about.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: All at sea
I don’t know if it’s still going on, but back when CASA first added MCC to their ever more complex rules, a few characters with no airline experience got approved to run the courses. Their instructor experience was mostly in flying schools with a bit of light corporate aircraft time. It was another cost impost for students and a gravy train for the MCC providers. Any decent type rating program should cover MCC elements, and most now place considerable emphasis on this.
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 57
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From: Sydney
I don’t know if it’s still going on, but back when CASA first added MCC to their ever more complex rules, a few characters with no airline experience got approved to run the courses. Their instructor experience was mostly in flying schools with a bit of light corporate aircraft time. It was another cost impost for students and a gravy train for the MCC providers. Any decent type rating program should cover MCC elements, and most now place considerable emphasis on this.
Whats even more remarkable is that instructors with Type Rating approvals on 737/320/etc, who hold ATPLs can’t actually run the MCC course without a seperate training endorsement on their licence.
Absolutely ridiculous!
Joined: Dec 2024
Posts: 25
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From: Sydney
The OP wasn’t asking for your takes on the MCC.
You will not get an interview at Virgin without having completed your MCC at time of application.
A rejected application will come with a 12 month cool off from applying again.
You will not get an interview at Virgin without having completed your MCC at time of application.
A rejected application will come with a 12 month cool off from applying again.
Joined: Dec 2023
Posts: 1,158
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From: Oz
Some smaller operators with a more one on one hiring relationship might give you some wriggle room. At a prior smaller employer, the CP and myself in recruitment would work a bit closer with some to get the required minimums done before start date, if it was someone we really wanted.
Most of the big players, you are at the mercy of the HR machine, so no dice.
Most of the big players, you are at the mercy of the HR machine, so no dice.
Joined: Nov 2011
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From: Vietnam
How nice of Virgin to make you pay $7k for something you don't need for an interview.
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Aus
I've been told by one airline after application that I was close but needed to go do 'x' before applying again, no cooldown, nothing. I said thanks, but I have other opportunities, they called back a few days later and asked me to come in for an interview, sim and such, and when they found out I had several other jobs lined up they rushed me into a ground course.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,296
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From: All at sea
Some smaller operators with a more one on one hiring relationship might give you some wriggle room. At a prior smaller employer, the CP and myself in recruitment would work a bit closer with some to get the required minimums done before start date, if it was someone we really wanted.
Most of the big players, you are at the mercy of the HR machine, so no dice.
Most of the big players, you are at the mercy of the HR machine, so no dice.
Joined: Dec 2023
Posts: 1,158
Likes: 899
From: Oz
Being a large airline, do they even process written applications? It’s quite possible that you would be at the mercy of a computer. If you don’t tick the MCC box (or any other mandatory box) the computer most likely would spit your application straight to a rejection. No HR person would even see it.
That also extends to rostering and payroll platforms, most of which ours locally are pretty crap.
I was aware that Rex was still using outdated processing methods with hiring and firing, and general payroll processes.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 103
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From: Oz
There are some urban legends around about MCC, so a bit of history.......
I cant remember exactly when, but around 2013 when CASR Part 61 was still in the draft melting pot, there was a push from "certain quarters" for CASA to copy the FAA requirement that a pilot could not conduct multi-crew ops unless they had 1500 hours as a pilot. The NTSB report on the Q400 Colgan crash at Buffalo was critical of several multi-crew aspects of the operation and the so called "1500 hour rule" was introduced by the FAA as one of the direct responses to the crash. This was obviously some kind of token reaction, as both of the pilots involved had well over 1500 hours!
The CASA DAS of the day was questioned directly at Senate estimates as to whether CASA was going to follow the FAA 1500 hour rule. The reply was that CASA would not, but instead would follow the European model of MCC. This came as a surprise to lots of people but, sure enough, the MCC qualification was introduced with the "new" regs.
Various flight schools then geared up for MCC courses, but a Part 142 approval was required, the required sim specs were quite tight and the sims were expensive, so very few operators ended up getting approval. Some airlines chose to integrate MCC into their type ratings if these were conducted in-house (e.g. QF, QF Link etc) while others didn't, and required MCC to be obtained as an entry requirement. (e.g. VA, JQ).
A point of difference with EASA is that their regs require MCC to be done prior to commencing a type rating, while the CASA regs don't. So, in Aus, you can do your first multi-crew type rating before you do MCC - although you cant use the rating until you get an MCC - not really a logical sequence. In terms of integrating MCC into a type rating, I guess that for an an airline there must be a cost consideration in using its full motion simulators and paying a TRI.
As an aside, in the USA, ALPA backed the FAA 1500 hour rule and has strongly opposed subsequent attempts to remove it, so there are obviously industrial considerations at play.
In respect of the original question, I guess it is up to an airline where they set their minimum requirements for application and its probable that checking the MCC box is used as a filter to reduce the number of applicants they need to interview.
FlySafe
PJ88
I cant remember exactly when, but around 2013 when CASR Part 61 was still in the draft melting pot, there was a push from "certain quarters" for CASA to copy the FAA requirement that a pilot could not conduct multi-crew ops unless they had 1500 hours as a pilot. The NTSB report on the Q400 Colgan crash at Buffalo was critical of several multi-crew aspects of the operation and the so called "1500 hour rule" was introduced by the FAA as one of the direct responses to the crash. This was obviously some kind of token reaction, as both of the pilots involved had well over 1500 hours!
The CASA DAS of the day was questioned directly at Senate estimates as to whether CASA was going to follow the FAA 1500 hour rule. The reply was that CASA would not, but instead would follow the European model of MCC. This came as a surprise to lots of people but, sure enough, the MCC qualification was introduced with the "new" regs.
Various flight schools then geared up for MCC courses, but a Part 142 approval was required, the required sim specs were quite tight and the sims were expensive, so very few operators ended up getting approval. Some airlines chose to integrate MCC into their type ratings if these were conducted in-house (e.g. QF, QF Link etc) while others didn't, and required MCC to be obtained as an entry requirement. (e.g. VA, JQ).
A point of difference with EASA is that their regs require MCC to be done prior to commencing a type rating, while the CASA regs don't. So, in Aus, you can do your first multi-crew type rating before you do MCC - although you cant use the rating until you get an MCC - not really a logical sequence. In terms of integrating MCC into a type rating, I guess that for an an airline there must be a cost consideration in using its full motion simulators and paying a TRI.
As an aside, in the USA, ALPA backed the FAA 1500 hour rule and has strongly opposed subsequent attempts to remove it, so there are obviously industrial considerations at play.
In respect of the original question, I guess it is up to an airline where they set their minimum requirements for application and its probable that checking the MCC box is used as a filter to reduce the number of applicants they need to interview.
FlySafe
PJ88
Last edited by Propjet88; 25th May 2025 at 01:52.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,628
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From: Aus
As an aside, in the USA, ALPA backed the FAA 1500 hour rule and has strongly opposed subsequent attempts to remove it, so there are obviously industrial considerations at play.
Having flown with airlines prior to MCC and after, I've seen a general decline in standards in Australia. So if the MCC was supposed to help things, no it hasn't, though it isn't the direct cause of the decline either, more to do with training standards and experience in GA. Did I see an improvement in multi-crew cockpit management practices, nope, pretty much the same before and after and the attitude of the Captain still set the tone for the operation with all the variations of personality involved. Some airlines just shifted fancy words around, like PM vs PNF, and so on. Still saw the same errors and mistakes, regardless of what you called each crew member. So fancy words don't suddenly make you realize what you should be doing if you are not, but it makes the idiots who write these things feel good to see a Shakespeare play in action in the cockpit, even the tragedy part when it goes awry. And before the boffins turn ape, I'm talking the waffle introduced in the last 20 or so years, not the valuable stuff learned back when KLM rammed Pan Am, and similar lessons from the past.
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
PNF to PM was an Airbus change about 15 years ago. Might have had its genesis before then (ICAO?). It wasn’t a thought bubble in airlines here IIRC. they just went along with international standards (surprisingly in some cases).
Joined: Oct 1999
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From: Oz
FlySafe
PJ88
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 4,704
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From: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Thanks for confirming my suspicions on its prehistory Propjet. Our FM unedited direct from Airbus - changed from PNF to PM in 2015 or early 2016 (I'm not sure which release, I've got a gap there of our old FMs)
Joined: Dec 2013
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From: Elsewhere
Did I see an improvement in multi-crew cockpit management practices, nope, pretty much the same before and after