BK GA Lane
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From a SY Radar guy...
Interesting thread. I've got a couple of cents to throw in (of course).
Design of lane: number of LOE-related CTA violations has dropped markedly since the corner of the Richmond CTR had a trim a few years back, and the lanes redesigned. It isn't really possible to take any more off the RIC CTR because the 28 ILS starts just to the west of round corner. Maybe a low-level VFR route underneath the glide slope??? Perhaps not.
Discrete Frequency: I'd be a liar to say the LOE position broadcasts by new/unfamiliar pilots or those that love others hearing the sound of their voice aren't damn annoying, especially with the amount of ground-ground coordination required by Radar/Terminal. A separate frequency would be a godsend. But the IFRs using the lane appreciate the radar traffic service provided and that of course is not available in MBZ/CTAF. Not only that, but we'd have a lot more traffic to pass to multiple IFRs going through the MBZ/CTAF (think IFR taxing and BK for the north, IFR inbound from the north.... procedural requirements for passing traffic versus radar observed traffic).
Situational awareness: This applies to the SY Radar as well as pilots. Don't forget the LOE is also used for airwork eg road traffic spotters doing all sorts of random maneouvres over the lanes. A quick, concise call is (admittedly) valuable for all. R/t instruction leaves a lot to be desired.
Gratuitous plug: Come along to SY ATC briefing/ Q+A day at BK on (edit: DATE TBA) For all pilots from trainee VFR to professional IFR. Everything you wanted to know about Sydney ATC but were afraid to ask. Not sure about location - check with your friendly school or BAL. I'm still working on getting Airservices to fork out for the beer
Design of lane: number of LOE-related CTA violations has dropped markedly since the corner of the Richmond CTR had a trim a few years back, and the lanes redesigned. It isn't really possible to take any more off the RIC CTR because the 28 ILS starts just to the west of round corner. Maybe a low-level VFR route underneath the glide slope??? Perhaps not.
Discrete Frequency: I'd be a liar to say the LOE position broadcasts by new/unfamiliar pilots or those that love others hearing the sound of their voice aren't damn annoying, especially with the amount of ground-ground coordination required by Radar/Terminal. A separate frequency would be a godsend. But the IFRs using the lane appreciate the radar traffic service provided and that of course is not available in MBZ/CTAF. Not only that, but we'd have a lot more traffic to pass to multiple IFRs going through the MBZ/CTAF (think IFR taxing and BK for the north, IFR inbound from the north.... procedural requirements for passing traffic versus radar observed traffic).
Situational awareness: This applies to the SY Radar as well as pilots. Don't forget the LOE is also used for airwork eg road traffic spotters doing all sorts of random maneouvres over the lanes. A quick, concise call is (admittedly) valuable for all. R/t instruction leaves a lot to be desired.
Gratuitous plug: Come along to SY ATC briefing/ Q+A day at BK on (edit: DATE TBA) For all pilots from trainee VFR to professional IFR. Everything you wanted to know about Sydney ATC but were afraid to ask. Not sure about location - check with your friendly school or BAL. I'm still working on getting Airservices to fork out for the beer
Last edited by 375ml; 13th Sep 2002 at 12:45.
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Any suggestion of an MBZ is ludicrous, as the lane is supposed to give a simple way of avoiding Richmond and Sydney, not complicate it further. Make it an MBZ and you can be sure those same people who have trouble now will have more trouble then.(wrong frequency tuned etc etc).
Look out the damned window and keep R/T blah to a minimum.
Look out the damned window and keep R/T blah to a minimum.
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OZGrade 3
Maybe you should get a current VTC the strobe northbound has not been at CARLINGFORD SHOPS for ages try Pennent Hills the
A V Jennings building then your flight plan times might turn out correct.
Good Luck.
A V Jennings building then your flight plan times might turn out correct.
Good Luck.
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BK LoE
Question.
How many mid air collisions have there been in the BK LoE?
Is there an increasing number that requires some kind of change to current procedures to combat.
When I was a PPL i was also taught to broadcast my intentions north and southbound in the lane.
There are over 5 times the number of aircraft in the Chicago area then there are in the entire country of Australia and yet it is a long time since there has been a mid air in one of the several VFR flyways.... none of which have a radio frequency to broadcast on. Unless you establish flight following with chicago approach then there are no radio calls to be made and it seems to work quite well. See and Avoid.
So my point is, has there been a string of accidents recently that spurred this discussion?
How many mid air collisions have there been in the BK LoE?
Is there an increasing number that requires some kind of change to current procedures to combat.
When I was a PPL i was also taught to broadcast my intentions north and southbound in the lane.
There are over 5 times the number of aircraft in the Chicago area then there are in the entire country of Australia and yet it is a long time since there has been a mid air in one of the several VFR flyways.... none of which have a radio frequency to broadcast on. Unless you establish flight following with chicago approach then there are no radio calls to be made and it seems to work quite well. See and Avoid.
So my point is, has there been a string of accidents recently that spurred this discussion?
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Weasil the problem has arisen because of the debate about the need for radio calls, radio congestion in the local area and funnelling aircraft in the LOE. At this point in time there have been (to my knowledge) no accidents in the lane.
Better to have a discussion before than a post mortem afterwards.
In addition the question about radio calls in the LOE, everyone at the Forum also got to hear Mike from BASI's talk on how effective "see and avoid" sometimes isn't, especially in high traffic areas.
When I hear a radio call in the lane it lets me know where other people are and it gives me a better chance of spotting them. Anything that helps me make the flight safer and increases my chances of avoiding trouble is not a bad thing. But the call, if it is made, should be short, to the point and accurate. I've heard more than one or two calls where the position report appeared to be speculative!
Better to have a discussion before than a post mortem afterwards.
In addition the question about radio calls in the LOE, everyone at the Forum also got to hear Mike from BASI's talk on how effective "see and avoid" sometimes isn't, especially in high traffic areas.
When I hear a radio call in the lane it lets me know where other people are and it gives me a better chance of spotting them. Anything that helps me make the flight safer and increases my chances of avoiding trouble is not a bad thing. But the call, if it is made, should be short, to the point and accurate. I've heard more than one or two calls where the position report appeared to be speculative!
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Oz grade 3 how often do you fly around IF?
95% of my flying is IFR and have never had a problem getting a radio call in due to traffic in the lane, I have had trouble with people calling up vfr for a QNH and adding a heap of dribble in that is not required and does not increase saftey for there flight,
do you train your students to call for QNH or have you taught them how to use forecasts correctly?
I do think the LoE should have a dedicated frequency, and after the comment about the Ultralites i think it should be a ctaf,
another point oz grade 3 made was standard altitudes for north and outh bound, last time i flew it i was sure the tracks were horizontally displaced, so seperation by altitude should not be required for opposite direction traffic, the only thing it does is keeps traffic on the same track at the same level which increases the risk of collision, a better idea would be to stack the aircraft by speed,
i usually come down the lane as low as possible when in a high performance twin as i have found it easier to see aircraft when they are above me rather than against a backdrop of buildings.
i always make a radio call entering the lane in both directions and in doing so have seperated my self with conflicting traffic.
95% of my flying is IFR and have never had a problem getting a radio call in due to traffic in the lane, I have had trouble with people calling up vfr for a QNH and adding a heap of dribble in that is not required and does not increase saftey for there flight,
do you train your students to call for QNH or have you taught them how to use forecasts correctly?
I do think the LoE should have a dedicated frequency, and after the comment about the Ultralites i think it should be a ctaf,
another point oz grade 3 made was standard altitudes for north and outh bound, last time i flew it i was sure the tracks were horizontally displaced, so seperation by altitude should not be required for opposite direction traffic, the only thing it does is keeps traffic on the same track at the same level which increases the risk of collision, a better idea would be to stack the aircraft by speed,
i usually come down the lane as low as possible when in a high performance twin as i have found it easier to see aircraft when they are above me rather than against a backdrop of buildings.
i always make a radio call entering the lane in both directions and in doing so have seperated my self with conflicting traffic.
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to I Fly
I Fly,
if the northbound and SB lanes are separated horizontally then how come you were head on (12 oclock) with an opposite direction aircraft to begin with.
if the northbound and SB lanes are separated horizontally then how come you were head on (12 oclock) with an opposite direction aircraft to begin with.
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ATC briefing
to clarify earlier post.... the Sydney ATC briefing is still on this Sunday 22/9. the BAL newsletter says it runs from 0800-1700 local and will be held at the Bankstown Terminal building.
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weasil and shablamm. Since both of you ask. We were going southbound on the southbound side and the Chieftain was going north bound from Prospect. We met him around Baulkham Hills. I presume he was VFR to avoid the charges. If he was IFR why would he not go at a greater hight direct in CTA?
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I think you'll find that the large BK based "commercial" schools train their pilots to make the following calls..
1. Northbound at PRT, identifying current position, altitude, altitude on climb to, direction AND a request for QNH. ie "Syd and all stations ABC a arrow is parramatta, 1500 on climb to 2000 northbound request QNH"
2. Southbound at BBG, once again with current position, altitude and direction. ie "All stations BK lane, ABC is BBG at 2500 southbound"
Also southbound/westbound Navs when overheard YHOX or between YHOX and YSCN or YHOX and YKAT
3. Position, destination, altitude, altitude on climb to and QNH. ie "Syd and all stations ABC is overhead YHOX at 1500 on climb to 6500, tracking Camden thense Canberra, request QNH".
I can tell you that in the many times I've travelled along the lane and also South and West that these calls have greatly helped with seperation. Calls have also been useful when travelling from YKAT-PSP along the unmarked lane between the highways and the restricted area (this is especially so when this area is quite busy late in the afternoon).
The calls provide:
1. Situational awareness - you immediatly know where your traffic is, you are not just relying on "see and avoid" during what can be time crictical phases of the flight or in times where the weather may be marginal VFR
2. QNH - We all know how to read a forecast but how often is the QNH different, sometimes to an extent that it could have you clibbing CTA if you weren't using the updated one.
3. A record of you. This was drilled into me. By making this call you are on tape, the time you are at this particular position is there, as are your intentions. If you do happen to go missing this assists authorities.
We have all had calls held up by people making unnecessary calls yes, but it seems education is the key, removing the calls altogether takes away the important situational awareness they provide.
Theres my 2 cents!
1. Northbound at PRT, identifying current position, altitude, altitude on climb to, direction AND a request for QNH. ie "Syd and all stations ABC a arrow is parramatta, 1500 on climb to 2000 northbound request QNH"
2. Southbound at BBG, once again with current position, altitude and direction. ie "All stations BK lane, ABC is BBG at 2500 southbound"
Also southbound/westbound Navs when overheard YHOX or between YHOX and YSCN or YHOX and YKAT
3. Position, destination, altitude, altitude on climb to and QNH. ie "Syd and all stations ABC is overhead YHOX at 1500 on climb to 6500, tracking Camden thense Canberra, request QNH".
I can tell you that in the many times I've travelled along the lane and also South and West that these calls have greatly helped with seperation. Calls have also been useful when travelling from YKAT-PSP along the unmarked lane between the highways and the restricted area (this is especially so when this area is quite busy late in the afternoon).
The calls provide:
1. Situational awareness - you immediatly know where your traffic is, you are not just relying on "see and avoid" during what can be time crictical phases of the flight or in times where the weather may be marginal VFR
2. QNH - We all know how to read a forecast but how often is the QNH different, sometimes to an extent that it could have you clibbing CTA if you weren't using the updated one.
3. A record of you. This was drilled into me. By making this call you are on tape, the time you are at this particular position is there, as are your intentions. If you do happen to go missing this assists authorities.
We have all had calls held up by people making unnecessary calls yes, but it seems education is the key, removing the calls altogether takes away the important situational awareness they provide.
Theres my 2 cents!
