TOO GOOD FOR GA?
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When I joined the military, I was a (relatively) experienced civvie pilot with approximately 5,000 hrs behind me. Grade 1 Instructor, ME IFR & a whole range of other tricks…
The military made me no concessions because of that & made me start “from the bottom” - in order to teach me not just the skills & knowledge, but also the attitudes required to be a military aviator.
They were correct to do so.
Several years later, I left the military & re-engaged in civvie aviation & although CASA gave me a
licence to fly a category of aircraft that I hadn’t had previously in civilian life - they didn’t gift me the qualifications to teach it - even though I held the highest category of military flying instructor rating on that category of aircraft.
They were correct to do so.
It’s all aviation, but there are fundamentally different skill sets between flying military, airlines, heavy jets, fighters & piston singles…
These different skills, knowledge & attitudes need to be learnt in context!
To think that there is nothing to learn from each different discipline / type of aviation is somewhat professionally arrogant - which carries significant risk.
CASA on this occasion has it correct.
The military made me no concessions because of that & made me start “from the bottom” - in order to teach me not just the skills & knowledge, but also the attitudes required to be a military aviator.
They were correct to do so.
Several years later, I left the military & re-engaged in civvie aviation & although CASA gave me a
licence to fly a category of aircraft that I hadn’t had previously in civilian life - they didn’t gift me the qualifications to teach it - even though I held the highest category of military flying instructor rating on that category of aircraft.
They were correct to do so.
It’s all aviation, but there are fundamentally different skill sets between flying military, airlines, heavy jets, fighters & piston singles…
These different skills, knowledge & attitudes need to be learnt in context!
To think that there is nothing to learn from each different discipline / type of aviation is somewhat professionally arrogant - which carries significant risk.
CASA on this occasion has it correct.
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Aircraft TRI/TREs do a PMI style course as part of their training, they also receive a letter from the regulator granting them the qualification/delegation, that is limited to while employed with that airline.
The regulator does the initial test for a TRE. They undergo bi-annual assessments as trainers. They undergo annual trainer refresher.
They are also trained on ICAO competency based assessment.
Despite all that, to teach abinitio, they would have to go and do an initial G3.
Because, Head..er..wind, sadly, a mathematics professor is likely to be more qualified to teach mathematics to school students, in Australia, than the people actually teaching.
And everyone realises that CASA has authorised Clarke to fly a C172, don't they...
And everyone realises that CASA has authorised Clarke to fly a C172, don't they...
1. many mathematics professors are good at the actual concepts and base theorems, they are actually pretty bad at arithmethic
2. many of them are shite teachers / lecturers. great reasearchers, but teaching. neh. and many don't like that aspect of their work3
3. also, teaching primary/secondary students requires a BEd or GradDipEd. don't think any joe can just walk off the street and get a job as a teacher. whereas, teaching university students, well, you could be a final year or honours student teaching first year tutorials.
i'm not sure you will have john nash teaching primary school math....
They went back to having the students go through the 1FTS CT4 course as it was proving a bit too much for them as we couldn't dumb down the pc9s as they can do on the pc21.
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If we go by his logic my 35 years of civvie instructing should qualify me to jump into a PC21 with no conversion training and start training fighter pilots. Yeah right.
When I came here with a UK instructor rating I had to do a conversion too.
Surely this god-like creature can manage to do a PMI exam, flight test and get an endorsement on "single engine aeroplanes below 5700 kg"?
Sounds like he would be a nightmare to work with, the way he looks down on us all, not someone you would want on your team, someone who thinks they can go to the AAT for special treatment instead of just complying with Part 61, the Part he would be teaching!
A few years ago I did a CPL conversion for a guy who had been instructing on Tornadoes in the RAF. He then had to do more conversion training before he went on to instruct at Pearce. He would have been a great civvie instructor as well, because he recognised that they are two very different skill sets and never saw one as inferior to the other, having flown GA before joining the RAF.
When I came here with a UK instructor rating I had to do a conversion too.
Surely this god-like creature can manage to do a PMI exam, flight test and get an endorsement on "single engine aeroplanes below 5700 kg"?
Sounds like he would be a nightmare to work with, the way he looks down on us all, not someone you would want on your team, someone who thinks they can go to the AAT for special treatment instead of just complying with Part 61, the Part he would be teaching!
A few years ago I did a CPL conversion for a guy who had been instructing on Tornadoes in the RAF. He then had to do more conversion training before he went on to instruct at Pearce. He would have been a great civvie instructor as well, because he recognised that they are two very different skill sets and never saw one as inferior to the other, having flown GA before joining the RAF.
I strongly disagree that an ex military pilot would show a bad attitude, at least on 95% of the occasions.
''Sounds like he would be a nightmare to work with, the way he looks down on us all, not someone you would want on your team''
A person, as you describe just wouldn't survive the Air Force Academy and the later career.
Teamwork is the cornerstone of the military, especially if we talk for air operations.
Can't be an Air Force pilot without good flying skills, SA, etc. The system is built like that
A civilian FI could be a skilled teacher and excellent pilot, could also be a limited pilot who got the license cause he just paid for it
Some good relationships with the flight school, an overpriced FI rating and gets the job maybe without a proper salary
Just to log some hours, present himself as a pilot instructor and make some videos on instagram
God helps the students
Of course, some checks before getting his rating are ok but is ridiculous to ask a military pilot to have the same course for FI rating with a 200 hours piston pilot and paying the same money for that
I am going by his arguments to the AAT in this particular case, not making generalisations about ex military pilots. He thought he should be fast tracked straight to a Grade 1, so there is no comparison to your analogy of the Instagram/200 hour pilot you describe, who probably wouldn't last long enough to get the hours for a Grade 1 either.
I have no idea about Australian CAA and their formalities
Clearly, as you don't even know the name of the regulatory body.
GA doesn't owe this man anything, in fact we've been paying his salary all these years with our taxes. I wonder why he is not staying in the RAAF where his skills would be appreciated if he is so keen to continue instructing?
I have no idea about Australian CAA and their formalities
Clearly, as you don't even know the name of the regulatory body.
GA doesn't owe this man anything, in fact we've been paying his salary all these years with our taxes. I wonder why he is not staying in the RAAF where his skills would be appreciated if he is so keen to continue instructing?
DRE,
Airline TRIs and TREs, are mainly about checking not training.
Clare prop,
your input re being tax funded etc etc is totally irrelevant, and ludicrous. That has no bearing on whether or not he would be capable and competent as a civil instructor.
All of the competencies in the MOS would be equivalently covered in the RAAF instructor pubs.
A question - is there a civilian course for formation training flying? If I taught formation flying in the military do I need to do a civilian course?
Airline TRIs and TREs, are mainly about checking not training.
Clare prop,
your input re being tax funded etc etc is totally irrelevant, and ludicrous. That has no bearing on whether or not he would be capable and competent as a civil instructor.
All of the competencies in the MOS would be equivalently covered in the RAAF instructor pubs.
A question - is there a civilian course for formation training flying? If I taught formation flying in the military do I need to do a civilian course?
Clare prop,
your input re being tax funded etc etc is totally irrelevant, and ludicrous. That has no bearing on whether or not he would be capable and competent as a civil instructor.
your input re being tax funded etc etc is totally irrelevant, and ludicrous. That has no bearing on whether or not he would be capable and competent as a civil instructor.
All of the competencies in the MOS would be equivalently covered in the RAAF instructor pubs.
Last edited by dr dre; 24th Aug 2023 at 21:06.
It’s not that the military pilots don’t know how to fly, but general aviation is a completely different world.
I did some training with ex military for them to get a civil license.
They have a lot of experience on fast and heavy jets, but many had problems with a c150 because the lag of power.
All of them would have killed themselves in a taildragger or when spinning a citabria.
even the most qualified of them , a former German Starfighter jockey with 500 hours on typ. Phantom Instructor and at the end of his career flying as a tornado instructor at cottesmoore, had problems with the very light aircraft.
He adapted very fast, but the additional training was well spent and absolutely needed.
Another thing is the civil trainees.
Many of them aren’t the best of the best, because they haven’t passed any selection process and don’t have the right attitude either.
I did some training with ex military for them to get a civil license.
They have a lot of experience on fast and heavy jets, but many had problems with a c150 because the lag of power.
All of them would have killed themselves in a taildragger or when spinning a citabria.
even the most qualified of them , a former German Starfighter jockey with 500 hours on typ. Phantom Instructor and at the end of his career flying as a tornado instructor at cottesmoore, had problems with the very light aircraft.
He adapted very fast, but the additional training was well spent and absolutely needed.
Another thing is the civil trainees.
Many of them aren’t the best of the best, because they haven’t passed any selection process and don’t have the right attitude either.
I don't think the former Squadron Leader Clarke is asking for more than he deserves.
After investing lots of public $$$ into the training, education, it is a fact that many ratings/endorsements do not translate into the civilian system, Yet, we all share the same skies.
Unfortunately the only way to change the Law for the benefits of others is to go through the legal system, which I believe is what the Officer is trying to achieve.
Maybe including PMI, IREX, AirLaw, HuF lessons at the Academy, which I am surprised they are not already covered?
After investing lots of public $$$ into the training, education, it is a fact that many ratings/endorsements do not translate into the civilian system, Yet, we all share the same skies.
Unfortunately the only way to change the Law for the benefits of others is to go through the legal system, which I believe is what the Officer is trying to achieve.
Maybe including PMI, IREX, AirLaw, HuF lessons at the Academy, which I am surprised they are not already covered?
DRE
UMMMM how many TRIs sat in the seat and did a DDM (Demo, Direct, Monitor) of a sequence? NONE. Sitting at the sim console, critiquing when someone doesn't do something correctly is not instructing. And I don't know what outfits you worked at, but at my previous airline, many a person was failed on a training day. Just saying. Where as Mil instructors would have demoed every single sequence in the Aircraft.
Which is the whole gist of his legal action. He is positing that his experience in the RAAF has demonstrated those competencies to a high standard, and therefore should be given the appropriate exemptions.
What about a formation endorsement? Should he be granted the right to teach formation flying? Or should he have to do a "CASA mandated course to demonstrate those competencies" as you claim.
Or what about aerobatics? same thing.
Now you are being deliberately obtuse. But to play your purile game - yes if you happen to know a civilian C&T pilot who has thousands of hours instruction in fast, single pilot jets that are capable of high G's and then yes, let em have a go instructing the military - I don't reckon the available suitable candidates are many.
Inbalance
You are missing the point. He has proven himself capable of flying the civilian platform - eg C172, His capability of flying said civilian airplane is not the issue. The issue is being allow to instruct.
Pretty harsh generalisation. But then again you are referring to non RAAF pilots, so I can't comment on the lack of skills of other countries. (I have flown with many RAAF pilots who have comfortably and safely spun a decathlon.
It’s in the name, Type Rating Instructor. All those training courses I and every other airline pilot have completed in our careers weren’t about training were they?
The only measure of competency as a civil instructor would be for him to compete a CASA mandated course to demonstrate those competencies, which he is refusing to do
What about a formation endorsement? Should he be granted the right to teach formation flying? Or should he have to do a "CASA mandated course to demonstrate those competencies" as you claim.
Or what about aerobatics? same thing.
So you’d have no problem letting pure civilian instructors directly train in the RAAF then would you? I mean the guy’s lawyer said it’s best trainee pilots get as diverse a range of teachers as possible, maybe the RAAF need some civilian C&T pilots to show them how to really fly……
Inbalance
All of them would have killed themselves in a taildragger or when spinning a citabria.
even the most qualified of them , a former German Starfighter jockey with 500 hours on typ. Phantom Instructor and at the end of his career flying as a tornado instructor at cottesmoore, had problems with the very light aircraft.
He adapted very fast, but the additional training was well spent and absolutely needed.
even the most qualified of them , a former German Starfighter jockey with 500 hours on typ. Phantom Instructor and at the end of his career flying as a tornado instructor at cottesmoore, had problems with the very light aircraft.
He adapted very fast, but the additional training was well spent and absolutely needed.
All of them would have killed themselves in a taildragger or when spinning a citabria.
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A question - is there a civilian course for formation training flying? If I taught formation flying in the military do I need to do a civilian course?
BUT!! Under CA$A rules, I didn't have the official sign-off for a civilian rating, because the RAAF simply marked the log book as "qualified" on type, as it covered GF, an Instrument Rating, low flying, hoist, cargo hook, and formation. So, I had to be "checked out" by a "qualified" formation pilot. This instructor (with 2000 hrs) had done 3 hours of formation training and had been signed off as qualified. He was then checking me (with 13,000 hrs). I showed him what formation was really about, and he was gripping the edge of his seat. His hand was still shaking as he signed me off.
CA$A horsefeather regulations, totally unnecessary.
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Surely this guy is more proficient at instructing than a 250 hour TT Pilot.
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UMMMM how many TRIs sat in the seat and did a DDM (Demo, Direct, Monitor) of a sequence? NONE. Sitting at the sim console, critiquing when someone doesn't do something correctly is not instructing. And I don't know what outfits you worked at, but at my previous airline, many a person was failed on a training day. Just saying. Where as Mil instructors would have demoed every single sequence in the Aircraft.
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