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TOO GOOD FOR GA?

Old 25th Aug 2023, 05:59
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by deja vu
It's worth mentioning that very early in my own training, at about 5 hours, a senior instructor ( ex military) from my flying school took me out in a Chipmunk, not as a lesson but just for a ride along and scared the living bejesus out of me as he demonstrated his bravado. It took me awhile before considering continuing with the whole thing.
Sounds like nothings changed then. Post-pandemic pinching all the truly experienced instructors, it seems your average Flight School these days typically has either (a) a lot of young, fresh-faced flight instructors often trained in the same school supervised by (b) the ones that either got left behind by the airlines or recently retired and needed pocket money... and if the young one is a good teacher, they're usually the better bet if only because they haven't quite yet grown sufficient bravado to push the aircraft to it's limits - although the longer they hang around the old guys the more likely it is at some point.

It's the old guys that are the worry: I recently failed a night rating simply because the Examiner (a crusty old semi-retired airline captain) simply couldn't keep his mouth shut and allow me to fly the plane the way I'd been trained. I found out later that he didn't get to fly much so the way to pass with him was simply to act dumb and let him 'demonstrate' it how he wanted and, so long as I didn't say anything stupid, he'd write out the ticket on the basis of him knowing my Instructor without me ever needing to touch the controls!

Bravado in the extreme.
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 06:06
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trevor the lover
SWH - DDM is NOT ever done in a sim. Direct and monitor, yes. But never have I seen a sim instructor get in the seat of a sim and do demonstrations of the sequences to come. On saying that, I have demonstrated engine failures after take off a few times to weak students. But what Rex Havoc is saying is true - there really is no Demonstrations done in sim training like in an aircraft. I think if your career has seen instructors getting in the seat to demonstrate sequences to you, then you are the definite exception and it is you who must therefore be clueless.
My Airbus Flight Crew Training Standards manual outlines 16 training exercises that should be taught using in seat instruction to prevent negative training outcomes, ie. the instructor occupies the PF or PM role. Has been that way for some time.

Sometimes the world moves on outside your reference frame.

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Old 25th Aug 2023, 07:01
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
You probably meant ‘numeracy’. But, in any event, you’re welcome.
Perhaps you should read your own post; you were the one who stated literacy. I’ve merely quoted you.
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 08:03
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 605carsten
The audacity of the authorities is shocking… the UK have been fast tracking “Fast Jet” aces into every job there is.. high fives all around in the old boys RAF club..
So Biggin Hill didn’t go well then?
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 08:23
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PiperCameron
I recently failed a night rating simply because the Examiner (a crusty old semi-retired airline captain) simply couldn't keep his mouth shut and allow me to fly the plane the way I'd been trained. I found out later that he didn't get to fly much so the way to pass with him was simply to act dumb and let him 'demonstrate' it how he wanted and, so long as I didn't say anything stupid, he'd write out the ticket on the basis of him knowing my Instructor without me ever needing to touch the controls!

Bravado in the extreme.
Extraordinary. A Flight Examiner isn't allowed to influence or allow bias to change the outcome of a test in any way. If the way you were trained led to a safety critical error, or your skills weren't up to scratch then that's "simply why" you would have failed. Also, an examiner is not allowed to "demonstrate" anything on a flight test. You can only pass/fail a candidate based on their ability to perform to the competency standard in the MOS, nothing more, nothing less.

What you are accusing this guy of is a very serious matter indeed.

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Old 25th Aug 2023, 08:41
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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You can only pass/fail a candidate based on their ability to perform to the competency standard in the MOS, nothing more, nothing less.
That's why a Flight Review is a good thing, if you don't perform a task to the standard, the FOI is allowed to demonstrate and direct until you reach the standard. The old Private Instrument Rating was excellent for this, no fails, always get to be up to speed, and good for 2 years.
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 09:02
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Also, in the civvie world, the students are paying his bills.. so you cant talk or behave towards a paying customer like you can in the military cadet world… alot of students in my experience have swapped instructors as the chemistry was “off” due to aviation culture differences.

So it would make sense to make them go thru a civvie teaching course to learn how to treat customers and teach there after… a meek housewife cannot be taught or spoken to how to fly in same manner a subservient young flight cadet who knows they are only still doing the course by the grace of god/instructor

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Old 25th Aug 2023, 09:56
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Head..er..wind
Perhaps you should read your own post; you were the one who stated literacy. I’ve merely quoted you.
You are correct. I made a mistake. Well spotted!
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 11:21
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Here are my insights/2c as a G1 instructor who luckily has moved on to bigger and better things.

I worked as an instructor for over 4 years at one of Australia’s biggest schools. The qualities that make a good civilian instructor; patience, compassion, empathy, composure, are almost by definition the opposite of how a military pilot is moulded over their career.

Additionally, I have helped to convert many military pilots (fighter pilots included) from multiple western countries to civilian licenses as part of their training for their Airline employer that used our school. I can unequivocally say they demonstrated NO enhanced abilities to learn, retain or apply the training being provided, including aircraft handling. They are just regular people who chose a different path.
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 12:30
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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But will you be able to bring to your instructing task an ‘appropriate’ level of understanding and accommodation of the almost-infinite levels of competence challenges of students with whom you deal, such that you will be able to nurture someone who’s a complete gumby through the exacting process of separating them from their money? That is the safety issue. It is - apparently - a subject dealt with in the CASA Syllabus.
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 12:34
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tbot
Additionally, I have helped to convert many military pilots (fighter pilots included) from multiple western countries to civilian licenses as part of their training for their Airline employer that used our school. I can unequivocally say they demonstrated NO enhanced abilities to learn, retain or apply the training being provided, including aircraft handling. They are just regular people who chose a different path.
I too have flown GA aircraft as an instructor with RAAF pilots of all types. I’ve found all of them to have above average skills, very quick to learn and only need to be shown once. If they didn’t have those qualities they would have been washed out early in their training. I still don’t think they should come in as a grade 1. But I’m sure they’d progress quickly from grade three if they could stomach the CASA BS.
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 14:19
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by self loading ballast
I've done a mix of GA, RAAF and CASA over 30+ years, and can say with absolute certainty that the CASA position, whilst 'technically correct' is a total joke and missing the big picture. They are just answering why it doesn't fit their busted ass regulatory framework which they don't have the inclination or knowledge to rectify. Far easier to say no and go eat a muffin over the road at 'Space'

After 4000 hours or so of GA and military, I did the GA instructor course. Whilst mildy entertaining for the first 3-4 flights all I really did was turn money into CO2. Could have done the test on day 2 and passed easily, far above the standard of a fresh CPL 18 year old out of Bankstown. Getting in and out of class D at 1.5 nm/min is different than a minimas approach to Honiara in a C130 after a 6 hour SAR, but hardly rocket science. The CASA beurocrats can't seem to grasp that a military trained pilot who has attained check and training (let alone actually gone to CFS for 3 months so they can teach triming and flaring) can pick up any syllabi and just teach. Very well. The expertise they bring with extensive training in CRM, AVRM, flying supervision, airborne instructional technique, sim checking, route checking, AVMED, etc far, far surpasses the CASA requirements. AB initio has its quirks, but is not exactly challenging compared to the rest of the skill set.
The only gap is showing a bit of knowledge of piston operations, and civil framework / regulatory differences of being a Civil instructor - ie what you can teach, crew duty, blah blah blah. This could be achieved by a flight test and an air law type quiz.
Oh, and don't tell blogs to f off home when he rocks up completely unprepared - smile, teach it in the air, tell him he did a great job so he comes back next week, and take his money.
Is it just me or is the arrogance of this post quite astonishing? This is exactly the "what-ho Squiffy" attitude that I am talking about.
So, Bloggs is unprepared, could have all kind of valid reasons for that, so perhaps you can help him with some tips to manage his time to fit in flying with other commitments, rather than just pat him on the head and patronise him?
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 15:31
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop
Is it just me or is the arrogance of this post quite astonishing? This is exactly the "what-ho Squiffy" attitude that I am talking about.
I thought it was a wind up at first, but then I remembered the real life comments of the subject complainant’s lawyer and wasn’t so sure……
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 16:12
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Zeg-
I think you are missing the point. Said applicant wants a FIR-G1 and other more senior instructor ratings. Does applicant even have 200 hours of ab-initio instruction?
I have no idea how much ab initio instruction he has. But that is not the point. Again, he is saying that the instruction standards of a highly experienced Military QFI are equivalent to the standards of a Grade 1 civilian instructor, and should be recognised accordingly.

Compressor stall -
What airbus you talking about? The A220? There was nothing like that in the a330, a340 or a380. Never over 25 years of sim time did an Instructor occupy the Left or Right seat in a sim to demo anything.

DRE - Please tell us which outfit you received such DDM training with? With a major Airline? I doubt it.
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 17:08
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre
Exactly. A lot of experienced trainers, TRI and TRE on heavy jets have had to sit in a Cessna and do their G3 FIR if they wanted to instruct in that arena, I know several who have. They never thought doing the FIR in a Cessna after years of training on Boeing or Airbus was beneath them.

There’s no reason this guy couldn’t have done the same, except perhaps arrogance going off his lawyer’s statement. He was willing to appeal his case all the way to the AAT but not willing to sign up for a 6 week Instructor’s rating.
Apart from the fact that he didn't need to
The Applicant merely seeks to upgrade his Grade 3 Instructor Training Endorsement to Grade 1 and to add three endorsements to his (already held) Flight Instructor Rating
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 17:26
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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I've done a mix of GA, RAAF and CASA over 30+ years, and can say with absolute certainty that the CASA position, whilst 'technically correct' is a total joke and missing the big picture. They are just answering why it doesn't fit their busted ass regulatory framework which they don't have the inclination or knowledge to rectify. Far easier to say no and go eat a muffin over the road at 'Space'

After 4000 hours or so of GA and military, I did the GA instructor course. Whilst mildy entertaining for the first 3-4 flights all I really did was turn money into CO2. Could have done the test on day 2 and passed easily, far above the standard of a fresh CPL 18 year old out of Bankstown. Getting in and out of class D at 1.5 nm/min is different than a minimas approach to Honiara in a C130 after a 6 hour SAR, but hardly rocket science. The CASA beurocrats can't seem to grasp that a military trained pilot who has attained check and training (let alone actually gone to CFS for 3 months so they can teach triming and flaring) can pick up any syllabi and just teach. Very well. The expertise they bring with extensive training in CRM, AVRM, flying supervision, airborne instructional technique, sim checking, route checking, AVMED, etc far, far surpasses the CASA requirements. AB initio has its quirks, but is not exactly challenging compared to the rest of the skill set.
The only gap is showing a bit of knowledge of piston operations, and civil framework / regulatory differences of being a Civil instructor - ie what you can teach, crew duty, blah blah blah. This could be achieved by a flight test and an air law type quiz.
Oh, and don't tell blogs to f off home when he rocks up completely unprepared - smile, teach it in the air, tell him he did a great job so he comes back next week, and take his money.
​​​​​​​Howya goin' Clarkey?
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 23:17
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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So, Bloggs is unprepared, could have all kind of valid reasons for that, so perhaps you can help him with some tips to manage his time to fit in flying with other commitments, rather than just pat him on the head and patronise him?
I had a student who was a highly-qualified lawyer who wanted to learn to fly choppers. But he had big troubles retaining skills. He booked a slot one morning, and I saw his car arrive just in time. I had prepared his lesson, and waited for him to come in. After 30 minutes of no-show, I walked out to his car, where he was deep in conversation on his phone. He finally hung up, stepped out, and asked "What are we doing today?"
"What did you PREPARE for?" I replied.
"Umm.. nothing..."
"Get back in your car, go home, and next time prepare for the flight to avoid wasting your time and mine - my next student is already here and reading his paperwork."

Where is the arrogance in that? Taking him flying would have done several things - burn up his money, re-teach him the previous lesson, and make me late for the next (well-prepared) student. He eventually went solo, after 70 hours! And then decided to stay a lawyer, as he didn't think he really had the ability to fly helicopters.
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 23:38
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Never over 25 years of sim time did an Instructor occupy the Left or Right seat in a sim to demo anything.
I fly for a major European A320 airline. Over the last five years EVERY sim session has involved some in-seat instruction. Jet upset, Baulked landing etc etc.
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Old 25th Aug 2023, 23:46
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer
Apart from the fact that he didn't need to
So he already had the rating but wanted to skip the minimum experience levels to upgrade to Grade 1?

Get in line and do your time son. It’s only 750 hrs of Instructional experience for G1, can knock that off in a year if you work hard.

If an already qualified and highly experienced civilian A330, 737 or Falcon 7X pilot, maybe even with TRE experience, wanted to fly one of those types in the RAAF would they be able to straight up? No, they’d have to go through the rigmarole of officer training, initial and advanced pilot’s course, maybe have to serve some time on another aircraft before getting back to one of those types, and maybe only in the right seat. The RAAF would have pink kittens if the former was suggested, yet here some of them are demanding the same in the civilian world.

If a RAAF pilot joins an airline, regardless if they were a wing commander or the best F-18 or C-130 captain there they still have to do their time in seniority before getting back in the LHS. I’m sure a lot have complained about this and tried to jump the queue (there was a case in India some years back of ex IAF fighter pilots suing for fast tracked commands in Air India and losing).

Get in line and do your time….


Last edited by dr dre; 26th Aug 2023 at 02:57.
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Old 26th Aug 2023, 01:08
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre
So he already had the rating but wanted to skip the minimum experience levels to upgrade to Grade 2 and 3?
You should really read the AATA decision.

Originally Posted by dr dre
Get in line and do your time son. It’s only 750 hrs of Instructional experience for G1, can knock that off in a year if you work hard..
And you have the temerity to make post after post about arrogance and perceived personality traits of the individual.

The debate is a healthy one. I just don't see the need to denigrate an individual by resorting to the usual and very, very tired stereotypes of the military. (or GA for that matter) Many posters have somewhat skewed views of what military flying training is like today. One point, overlooked by much of the discussion, is that RAAF flying training is conducted in tandem seat aircraft which presents unique challenges when compared to side by side seating as undertaken by most civilian schools. In this particular case, the individual introduced his experience of instructing in Saudi Arabia, no doubt that has quite specific challenges which could be akin to the experience of teaching competency units on a CASA RPL to a fresh student because of the language barrier. There are a number of factors which could have been explored further in this decision.

However, CASA is the arbiter of its regulations and the decision is clear. I'll believe the safety of air navigation was preserved by this decision if they say so.

If an already qualified and highly experienced civilian A330, 737 or Falcon 7X pilot, maybe even with TRE experience, wanted to fly me of those types in the RAAF would they be able to straight up? No, they’d have to go through the rigmarole of officer training, initial and advanced pilot’s course, maybe have to serve some time on another aircraft before getting back to one of those types, and maybe only in the right seat. The RAAF would have pink kittens if the former was suggested, yet here some of them are demanding the same in the civilian world.
I'm not convinced anyone is demanding anything. A process has been followed. It is an individual's right to challenge the regulations. As for your example, when you hear of someone wanting to do that why don't we debate the pros and cons on here without rubbishing each side. Given there is a shortage of candidates for the ADF, one can only speculate what would be considered.

If a RAAF pilot joins an airline, regardless if they were a wing commander or the best F-18 or C-130 captain there they still have to do their time in seniority before getting back in the LHS. I’m sure a lot have complained about this and tried to jump the queue (there was a case in India some years back of ex IAF fighter pilots suing for fast tracked commands in Air India and losing).
And you've indicated that it is about seniority, not equivalent experience which is what this case is about.
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