G/A Light Aircraft ditches off Leighton Beach, WA
There's a number of ditchings to study for ideas on what to do. Tuninter 1153 is a case where the pilot did just about everything wrong, except the ditching itself, where it was commented he at least landed it exactly as ATR wanted it to be done. Unfortunately ATRs are not the toughest airframe and even with the recommended touchdown it split into 3 parts with only the wingbox and empty fuel tanks remaining to float, which made a semi decent raft for the survivors. Then of course the Hudson event and a multitude of light aircraft both retracts and fixed gear are on record for a read.
Pipers small fleet POH usually has a statement that the emergency procedures are just for a quick refresh as emergencies such as power off landings/ditchings are part of the training syllabus so should be covered in pilot training and not really up to Piper to expand on. So if you read the POH it simply tells you to go speak to your instructor about it, but here's some common items that might be helpful to restart an engine or prepare for the landing, rather than the technique for achieving it.
It is worth some robust discussion over what is right, as it will vary slightly from aircraft to aircraft. Archer with spats and big tyres may well be better off slightly faster to skim with control, some other machines with shopping trolley wheels the opposite, slow as possible as it will bite hard no matter what, gear down or up if it's retractable and so on...
Things I think are worthwhile considering;
Carry lifejackets when operating near water, this incident shows even with land around you may end up in the drink. If time permits put the jacket on prior to landing and do not inflate it until you leave the aircraft. Even if you are a good swimmer the landing could knock you around enough to make it difficult, and its easier to just pull an unconscious passengers LJ and let them float until help arrives.
Doors/exits ajar prior to landing as long as they don't make life more difficult, pretty obvious if the fuselage twists the door could jam shut making escape difficult.
If you really want to avoid getting wet, fly higher over water so that there is always landing options on the hard stuff. If you have to fly over water make note of ships/boats oilrigs etc in the area as landing close to one should attract attention and possibly faster assistance. A large ship will take a long time to slow/turn around so don't expect it to come back quickly even if it does see you.
Never assume the craft will float after landing, get out and see what happens once outside.
Pipers small fleet POH usually has a statement that the emergency procedures are just for a quick refresh as emergencies such as power off landings/ditchings are part of the training syllabus so should be covered in pilot training and not really up to Piper to expand on. So if you read the POH it simply tells you to go speak to your instructor about it, but here's some common items that might be helpful to restart an engine or prepare for the landing, rather than the technique for achieving it.
It is worth some robust discussion over what is right, as it will vary slightly from aircraft to aircraft. Archer with spats and big tyres may well be better off slightly faster to skim with control, some other machines with shopping trolley wheels the opposite, slow as possible as it will bite hard no matter what, gear down or up if it's retractable and so on...
Things I think are worthwhile considering;
Carry lifejackets when operating near water, this incident shows even with land around you may end up in the drink. If time permits put the jacket on prior to landing and do not inflate it until you leave the aircraft. Even if you are a good swimmer the landing could knock you around enough to make it difficult, and its easier to just pull an unconscious passengers LJ and let them float until help arrives.
Doors/exits ajar prior to landing as long as they don't make life more difficult, pretty obvious if the fuselage twists the door could jam shut making escape difficult.
If you really want to avoid getting wet, fly higher over water so that there is always landing options on the hard stuff. If you have to fly over water make note of ships/boats oilrigs etc in the area as landing close to one should attract attention and possibly faster assistance. A large ship will take a long time to slow/turn around so don't expect it to come back quickly even if it does see you.
Never assume the craft will float after landing, get out and see what happens once outside.
Last edited by 43Inches; 27th Apr 2023 at 00:58.
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2. Wear waders, feet will be dry, but you'll look like a tool.
I think the main point anyway was to have a chat with an experienced instructor about what to do in a ditching.
As for flaps, if I put anything about ditching technique I will be shouted down so I'm not going to bother
I delved through a whole bunch of military manuals as to their recommendations for everything from a T-34 (nee Bonanza type) to the B-52 and B-36. All recommend flap without exception, though the amount of flap depended on type, some are known to have such poor ditching characteristics that bail out is recommended if at all possible.
The first 2 stages of flaps in the Archer/Warrior/Cherokee models are lift and the last stage basically all drag - so I get that you may not want ALL flaps out for ditching
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Another trap with water landings is judging your height above the surface, especially on flat glassy surfaces. In this case extra speed might be a good idea with a flare slightly higher and gentle descent as speed washes off to touch down. Once you start making contact firm backpressure as it slows will minimise the chance of flipping, ie don't relax until it stops.
Also knowing which way the current is flowing can minimise impact speed. Ideal would be into wind but with the current...
Also knowing which way the current is flowing can minimise impact speed. Ideal would be into wind but with the current...
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Same here, on my aircraft you can’t open the back door with the flaps down. You’d have to kick it out and only an adult would be able to do that.
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Other than Cessna's 206, on account of rear doors not opening with (full?) flaps
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/25.801
FAR 23 on the other hand not nesasserily, depends on the level of aircraft
§ 23.2315 Means of egress and emergency exits.(a) With the cabin configured for takeoff or landing, the airplane is designed to:
(1) Facilitate rapid and safe evacuation of the airplane in conditions likely to occur following an emergency landing, excluding ditching for level 1, level 2, and single-engine level 3 airplanes.
(2) Have means of egress (openings, exits, or emergency exits), that can be readily located and opened from the inside and outside. The means of opening must be simple and obvious and marked inside and outside the airplane.
(3) Have easy access to emergency exits when present.
(b) Airplanes approved for aerobatics must have a means to egress the airplane in flight.
(1) Facilitate rapid and safe evacuation of the airplane in conditions likely to occur following an emergency landing, excluding ditching for level 1, level 2, and single-engine level 3 airplanes.
(2) Have means of egress (openings, exits, or emergency exits), that can be readily located and opened from the inside and outside. The means of opening must be simple and obvious and marked inside and outside the airplane.
(3) Have easy access to emergency exits when present.
(b) Airplanes approved for aerobatics must have a means to egress the airplane in flight.
§ 23.2005 Certification of normal category airplanes.
(a) Certification in the normal category applies to airplanes with a passenger-seating configuration of 19 or less and a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 19,000 pounds or less.
(b) Airplane certification levels are:
(1) Level 1—for airplanes with a maximum seating configuration of 0 to 1 passengers.
(2) Level 2—for airplanes with a maximum seating configuration of 2 to 6 passengers.
(3) Level 3—for airplanes with a maximum seating configuration of 7 to 9 passengers.
(4) Level 4—for airplanes with a maximum seating configuration of 10 to 19 passengers.
(a) Certification in the normal category applies to airplanes with a passenger-seating configuration of 19 or less and a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 19,000 pounds or less.
(b) Airplane certification levels are:
(1) Level 1—for airplanes with a maximum seating configuration of 0 to 1 passengers.
(2) Level 2—for airplanes with a maximum seating configuration of 2 to 6 passengers.
(3) Level 3—for airplanes with a maximum seating configuration of 7 to 9 passengers.
(4) Level 4—for airplanes with a maximum seating configuration of 10 to 19 passengers.
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Another trap with water landings is judging your height above the surface, especially on flat glassy surfaces. In this case extra speed might be a good idea with a flare slightly higher and gentle descent as speed washes off to touch down. Once you start making contact firm backpressure as it slows will minimise the chance of flipping, ie don't relax until it stops.
2. It is just about impossible to judge your height above pure glassy water. If you can put the sun in the right position you may be able to use the shadow of the aircraft to judge your height. If there are objects floating on the surface or an adjacent shoreline you can use those to help judge height too. Some very experienced float pilots use the trim change as they enter ground effect to know when to flare when flying into very small glassy lakes. Accurate height judgement even on textured water is a skill that takes a long time to develop.
My advice, ditch whilst you still have power if you can so you can set up a very slow rate of descent with a high nose attitude - that way it doesn't matter if you judge the height wrong. Without power there is a lot to be said for flying at minimum sink speed and not attempting a flare - a high flare followed by a stall is not going to be pretty. And in case it goes badly make sure you know how to open the door and exit the aircraft without losing orientation - this needs to be done before departure, preferably on a HUET course.
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Piper 28 series aircraft -= three stages of flap. The difference in stalling speed between flap 2 and flap 3 is ONE knot.
In a ditching, slow is good. Right place is second good. You use that last bit of flap if you need to splash a bit sooner.
In a ditching, slow is good. Right place is second good. You use that last bit of flap if you need to splash a bit sooner.
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Having flown floats onto still lakes I can say the most important thing is control.
You do not approach at minimum speed as this can lead to loss of control and high rates of descent. The important factors are body angle and minimal rate of descent at touch down. Some float conversions have the final stage of flap locked out for that reason. In a powered float situation you come down to a reasonable height above the water set an appropriate attitude and power to gently settle onto the surface, as soon as you touch down, cut power, and pull back, the hydrodynamic drag will suck you onto the water so you won't balloon. If you approach too slow you risk developing a high rate of descent, for a land plane this might only result in a heavy landing or bounce, in a seaplane it will be terminal and you'll end up inverted.
The reason I suggested a faster approach speed without power is to maintain control during the flare and touchdown, the idea is to be able to transition to the correct attitude nose high and allow it to touch down at minimal rate of descent. This in no way means dive bombing the sea in a nose dive, it just means carrying a few extra knots above normal landing speed.
The Perth ditching really demonstrated the importance of control during the touch down, she maintained back pressure, so however unlikely it was, the aircraft skiid on the water and resisted biting nose first.
You have to remember as well the sea is not a static target, it's moving and pulsing, so there can be a lot of visual illusions as you approach.
You do not approach at minimum speed as this can lead to loss of control and high rates of descent. The important factors are body angle and minimal rate of descent at touch down. Some float conversions have the final stage of flap locked out for that reason. In a powered float situation you come down to a reasonable height above the water set an appropriate attitude and power to gently settle onto the surface, as soon as you touch down, cut power, and pull back, the hydrodynamic drag will suck you onto the water so you won't balloon. If you approach too slow you risk developing a high rate of descent, for a land plane this might only result in a heavy landing or bounce, in a seaplane it will be terminal and you'll end up inverted.
The reason I suggested a faster approach speed without power is to maintain control during the flare and touchdown, the idea is to be able to transition to the correct attitude nose high and allow it to touch down at minimal rate of descent. This in no way means dive bombing the sea in a nose dive, it just means carrying a few extra knots above normal landing speed.
The Perth ditching really demonstrated the importance of control during the touch down, she maintained back pressure, so however unlikely it was, the aircraft skiid on the water and resisted biting nose first.
You have to remember as well the sea is not a static target, it's moving and pulsing, so there can be a lot of visual illusions as you approach.
I'll have a go Clare I delved through a whole bunch of military manuals as to their recommendations for everything from a T-34 (nee Bonanza type) to the B-52 and B-36. All recommend flap without exception, though the amount of flap depended on type, some are known to have such poor ditching characteristics that bail out is recommended if at all possible.Something the B-25 manual states,
I delved through a whole bunch of military manuals as to their recommendations for everything from a T-34 (nee Bonanza type) to the B-52 and B-36. All recommend flap without exception, though the amount of flap depended on type, some are known to have such poor ditching characteristics that bail out is recommended if at all possible.Something the B-25 manual states,An example of how airlines don’t always get it right was something across all Qantas manuals which filtered down to other operators who plagiarised their stuff to satisfy CASA’s obsession with thick manuals. In ditching, after the aircraft came to a stop in the drink, this had the Captain order the evacuation via the P.A. No Australian operator got to try it, but if they had, they may have been quite disappointed.
While I would always prefer definitive manufacturer advice derived from some form of testing over generic advice, in the absence of the former, often old U.S. military books have the best information. After all, they have acquired more hands-on experience ditching than than any flying school or airline.
An example of how airlines don’t always get it right was something across all Qantas manuals which filtered down to other operators who plagiarised their stuff to satisfy CASA’s obsession with thick manuals. In ditching, after the aircraft came to a stop in the drink, this had the Captain order the evacuation via the P.A. No Australian operator got to try it, but if they had, they may have been quite disappointed.
An example of how airlines don’t always get it right was something across all Qantas manuals which filtered down to other operators who plagiarised their stuff to satisfy CASA’s obsession with thick manuals. In ditching, after the aircraft came to a stop in the drink, this had the Captain order the evacuation via the P.A. No Australian operator got to try it, but if they had, they may have been quite disappointed.
I've had a situation where the batteries had to be turned off during a rejected start as the engine was continuing to motor. No comms with the cabin at all with PA or dings or whatever electrical method, so opened the door and told the FAs what was happening. Turns out a number of relays had welded open so any electrical power got to the starters. You don't want the FA's sitting in the dark down the back with no info too long, especially if the engine had torched during the abort.
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So: Agent 86 and, implicitly from the ‘like’, Squawk7700 are asserting that both wing tanks were ‘bone dry’. Do I have that correct, Agent 86 and Squawk7700?
Or are you just speculating based on no information other than your educated guesses?
Or are you just speculating based on no information other than your educated guesses?
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