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Midair near Gympie, Qld

Old 1st Dec 2022, 04:22
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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To be fair self regulation does not mean it has to have an investigation arm when an independent transport safety investigation bureau already exists. CASA defers to the ATSB or Police for investigations beyond a certain scope and as mentioned before having the facilities and equipment to properly test and evaluate materials and data would not be feasible for such operations.

On the other hand, what more is there to learn here, the aircraft either met unintentionally being unaware of each other or intentionally where one party rammed the other. Without any proof of the later where the police and coroner need input it just comes down to two machines being in the same space/time point in unison and added to the statistics for an overall plan on how to stop it happening again. Spending hundreds of man hours on working out the exact points of impact and the pilots medical history probably wont reveal much else that they don't already know. And suggested outcomes that pilots already know about, communicating appropriately, looking out and planning to avoid glider areas if you can.
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 04:57
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 43Inches
To be fair self regulation does not mean it has to have an investigation arm when an independent transport safety investigation bureau already exists.
Quite. That's been AOPA's point for some time. It's taken a little longer for RAAus to catch up.
Originally Posted by 43Inches
CASA defers to the ATSB or Police for investigations beyond a certain scope and as mentioned before having the facilities and equipment to properly test and evaluate materials and data would not be feasible for such operations.
CASA doesn't 'defer' to the ATSB or police on accident investigations. CASA doesn't do them.
Originally Posted by 43Inches
On the other hand, what more is there to learn here, the aircraft either met unintentionally being unaware of each other or intentionally where one party rammed the other.
So you've ruled out any potential airworthiness issue from your armchair. You're probably correct, but we don't know. That's kinda the point.

And out of the two alternatives you've posited, different responses flow.
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 06:43
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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So you've ruled out any potential airworthiness issue from your armchair. You're probably correct, but we don't know. That's kinda the point.
I mean there's a infinitesimal chance that something broke on one of the aircraft causing it to suddenly fly into the other aircraft. But for that to be a causal factor they would have had to be flying in close proximity to begin with, which would probably have peaked the ATSBs attention. I would say the ATSB has had a look, and with a cursory glance said, midair, nothing that we haven't learned from in the past, and have written at length about.

A bit like the multitude of road head on collisions, few of them are investigated other than documentation of the occurrence and most likely marked down as a statistic to prove the road needs barriers or something else at a later date. The only thing they release is the arbitrary statement that says "speed was a factor", which of course if both were stationary a collision could not have occurred. The only comprehensive road vehicle crash investigations seem to be only when a University gets interested and gets a funding grant from someone to look into it. Or if the Coroner gets a whiff of something they want to look into.
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 07:09
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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I thought every road death was investigated.
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 10:02
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Originally Posted by tossbag
I thought every road death was investigated.
It depends. If the initial investigation reveals that someone may be at fault with a level of negligence, or recklessness involved, then an investigation will follow and charges laid etc.

If someone has fallen asleep and killed themselves, it will be very brief. If they kill someone else and survive, different story. If they have a heart attack and kill someone or a few others, not much will happen.

One can only assume similar with aviation. The chap in the Jabiru that blasted off into atrocious weather, received a limited investigation.
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 12:03
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Yeah, fair enough, makes sense. But to determine all of those parameters there'd have to be an investigation right?
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 18:05
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Originally Posted by tossbag
I thought every road death was investigated.
By the ATSB ?
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 18:09
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For the Flarm ‘salesmen’ to consider. Over in fully flarm land we gets this:

Two Dead After Gliders Collide In Germany

https://www.republicworld.com/world-...n-germany.html
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 19:43
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Originally Posted by tossbag
Yeah, fair enough, makes sense. But to determine all of those parameters there'd have to be an investigation right?
Yes certainly, just a small one in some cases, but yes, you canít die on a road without some level of due diligence being applied.

I used to bump into a chap at the academy in the traffic training area that was always analysing photos of damaged vehicles etc, looking for illegal modifications etc to try and work out what went wrong. His former students out in the field would ask him for help with their initial assessments.
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 19:44
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Originally Posted by Flying Binghi
For the Flarm ‘salesmen’ to consider. Over in fully flarm land we gets this:

Two Dead After Gliders Collide In Germany

https://www.republicworld.com/world-...n-germany.html
And? Nothing is fool proof. Gliders thermal close together- even when gliders are obviously in visual contact, someone can mess up, be distracted, join to aggressively. Remember the two TCAS equipped airliners who still managed to collide?
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 21:36
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz
And? Nothing is fool proof. Gliders thermal close together- even when gliders are obviously in visual contact, someone can mess up, be distracted, join to aggressively. Remember the two TCAS equipped airliners who still managed to collide?
In TCAS accident one pilot was following ATC instructions and another pilot was following TCAS instructions.
I don't think two gliders were gliding in controlled airspace..
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 22:44
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Yeah, fair enough, makes sense. But to determine all of those parameters there'd have to be an investigation right?
The police will do the investigation as two died, so there will be a report of sorts. All I meant is there will not be a comprehensive investigation that is released to the public for each event detailing the causes and remedial actions. The police report will just gather facts and document the event in case of litigation, which is what is done in car accidents, if something is amiss or the coroner gets wind of something unusual then it may be elevated to a more substantial report, news involved etc... It's not whether an investigation is conducted, I was more referring to an ATSB style comprehensive investigation with public report highlighting what we can learn or improve.


For the Flarm ‘salesmen’ to consider. Over in fully flarm land we gets this:

Two Dead After Gliders Collide In Germany

https://www.republicworld.com/world-...n-germany.html
Why I said earlier these events will continue to happen even with ACAS systems, ATC and whatever else. But the hope is it's at a lower rate.

Whenever you have multiple aircraft operating in close proximity you have a chance of collision. It's a small chance but always there, no different to driving a car. What can happen with ATC and FLARM, ACAS is the pilots can get lazy and rely on said functions to save them, when eyes open and good radio procedure are the best defense to start with. Look what happens when cars are given prototype autopilots, youtube filled with idiots in the passenger seat filming the car drive itself. A system designed for open highways but people using it in cluttered city streets and wonder why it sometimes hits a pedestrian...

Near airports you have a much higher risk as pilots are focusing on the approach and landing with most attention on the runway. This is why lookout and traffic awareness should be stressed in training and also an orderly predictable traffic pattern established for any airport. Gliders also have unique problems in that they circle around looking for thermals so not as much straight line and predictable, they also congregate around launch sites. A savvy powered flight pilot should avoid these areas if they have no business there to reduce the chance of collision, after all they are marked on the maps for a reason. If you are to transit the area be on your toes and keep a very good lookout.
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 22:53
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Where's that Like button?
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Old 1st Dec 2022, 23:15
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bosi72
In TCAS accident one pilot was following ATC instructions and another pilot was following TCAS instructions.
I don't think two gliders were gliding in controlled airspace..
My point was nothing is fool-proof. What was YOUR point?
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Old 11th Dec 2022, 03:14
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz
And? Nothing is fool proof. Gliders thermal close together- even when gliders are obviously in visual contact, someone can mess up, be distracted, join to aggressively. Remember the two TCAS equipped airliners who still managed to collide?
You best tell the Flarm sales people that. Seems to be a few posters here and even other forums pushing Flarm and related systems. I guess the other aviation forums get advertising revenue so No dissenting voices allowed..

Iíve used Tcad for going on a quarter century now and find it fairly useless in an uncontrolled circuit area. I constantly hit the mute button because it distracts from my look-out.

In an IFR situation or a Ďset pieceí flight under full ATC control is where Tcas/Tcad has the most use.

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Old 12th Dec 2022, 00:02
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FWIW, here's the ABC's report:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-...rash/101716312

ATSB chief commissioner Angus Mitchell said it was a "long-established government policy" to prioritise resources on investigations with the potential to deliver the greatest public benefit.

Mr Mitchell said mid-air collisions were rare and any ATSB investigation would be "unlikely to yield new safety learnings for the aviation industry". He said there was "self-administration arrangements" for the recreational sector to undertake its own accident investigations. "Where requested and as resourcing permits the ATSB may assist sport and recreation aviation organisations," Mr Mitchell said. "The ATSB empathises with the next of kin who have lost loved ones in the Kybong accident and are seeking answers as to how the accident occurred."
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Old 12th Dec 2022, 22:58
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Originally Posted by PiperCameron

Hmmm.. I see this comment:

“..People have died … an investigation would be very valuable for all pilots … to know what happened, because a mid-air collision is something that can happen to any aircraft..”


I think we has a fair idea what happened. Why..?

I’d ask the question - what if an ATSB investigation notes the ages of the pilots involved and the limited medical requirements to retain their flying ‘privileges’. I wonder, will there be a clamouring for mandatory pilot grounding after age 65..

I think the ATSB have a fair idea of the ‘why’
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Old 13th Dec 2022, 02:28
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Originally Posted by Flying Binghi
I’d ask the question - what if an ATSB investigation notes the ages of the pilots involved and the limited medical requirements to retain their flying ‘privileges’. I wonder, will there be a clamouring for mandatory pilot grounding after age 65..

I think the ATSB have a fair idea of the ‘why’
If you ask that question, I'm not at all sure I, for one, want to hear the answer!

If we stick with the "Mr Mitchell said mid-air collisions were rare and any ATSB investigation would be "unlikely to yield new safety learnings for the aviation industry"" as the last word on this incident, maybe, at least we still get to fly..

Last edited by PiperCameron; 13th Dec 2022 at 02:46.
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Old 13th Dec 2022, 04:25
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Originally Posted by PiperCameron
If you ask that question, I'm not at all sure I, for one, want to hear the answer!

If we stick with the "Mr Mitchell said mid-air collisions were rare and any ATSB investigation would be "unlikely to yield new safety learnings for the aviation industry"" as the last word on this incident, maybe, at least we still get to fly..
Yep.

Some comments from the article:

..Gliding Australia president Steve Pegler said the ATSB should "absolutely" be investigating.

..Recreational Aviation Australia (RAAus) has echoed the call.


..Caboolture Gliding Club president Garrett Russell … an investigation would be very valuable for all pilots … to know what happened,


I think some forget that the reason average Australians of all ages can fly as pilots is the regulations are not as strict for light aircraft and gliders. If we want airline type safety levels then most private pilots will not be able to afford to fly.. apart from Dick Smith…… but he’s over 65, so will be grounded anyway…

I ride motorbikes on public roads. I do Not call for the ATSB to investigate all motorbike accidents.. What they going to say.. add two wheels, a seatbelt, and a roll cage to all motorbikes……


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Old 23rd Dec 2022, 01:37
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Well, whadya know.. the ATSB have decided to step in after all!!

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...rt/ae-2022-005
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