Midair near Gympie, Qld
To be fair self regulation does not mean it has to have an investigation arm when an independent transport safety investigation bureau already exists. CASA defers to the ATSB or Police for investigations beyond a certain scope and as mentioned before having the facilities and equipment to properly test and evaluate materials and data would not be feasible for such operations.
On the other hand, what more is there to learn here, the aircraft either met unintentionally being unaware of each other or intentionally where one party rammed the other. Without any proof of the later where the police and coroner need input it just comes down to two machines being in the same space/time point in unison and added to the statistics for an overall plan on how to stop it happening again. Spending hundreds of man hours on working out the exact points of impact and the pilots medical history probably wont reveal much else that they don't already know. And suggested outcomes that pilots already know about, communicating appropriately, looking out and planning to avoid glider areas if you can.
On the other hand, what more is there to learn here, the aircraft either met unintentionally being unaware of each other or intentionally where one party rammed the other. Without any proof of the later where the police and coroner need input it just comes down to two machines being in the same space/time point in unison and added to the statistics for an overall plan on how to stop it happening again. Spending hundreds of man hours on working out the exact points of impact and the pilots medical history probably wont reveal much else that they don't already know. And suggested outcomes that pilots already know about, communicating appropriately, looking out and planning to avoid glider areas if you can.
And out of the two alternatives you've posited, different responses flow.
So you've ruled out any potential airworthiness issue from your armchair. You're probably correct, but we don't know. That's kinda the point.
A bit like the multitude of road head on collisions, few of them are investigated other than documentation of the occurrence and most likely marked down as a statistic to prove the road needs barriers or something else at a later date. The only thing they release is the arbitrary statement that says "speed was a factor", which of course if both were stationary a collision could not have occurred. The only comprehensive road vehicle crash investigations seem to be only when a University gets interested and gets a funding grant from someone to look into it. Or if the Coroner gets a whiff of something they want to look into.
It depends. If the initial investigation reveals that someone may be at fault with a level of negligence, or recklessness involved, then an investigation will follow and charges laid etc.
If someone has fallen asleep and killed themselves, it will be very brief. If they kill someone else and survive, different story. If they have a heart attack and kill someone or a few others, not much will happen.
One can only assume similar with aviation. The chap in the Jabiru that blasted off into atrocious weather, received a limited investigation.
If someone has fallen asleep and killed themselves, it will be very brief. If they kill someone else and survive, different story. If they have a heart attack and kill someone or a few others, not much will happen.
One can only assume similar with aviation. The chap in the Jabiru that blasted off into atrocious weather, received a limited investigation.
For the Flarm ‘salesmen’ to consider. Over in fully flarm land we gets this:
Two Dead After Gliders Collide In Germany
https://www.republicworld.com/world-...n-germany.html
Two Dead After Gliders Collide In Germany
https://www.republicworld.com/world-...n-germany.html
I used to bump into a chap at the academy in the traffic training area that was always analysing photos of damaged vehicles etc, looking for illegal modifications etc to try and work out what went wrong. His former students out in the field would ask him for help with their initial assessments.
For the Flarm ‘salesmen’ to consider. Over in fully flarm land we gets this:
Two Dead After Gliders Collide In Germany
https://www.republicworld.com/world-...n-germany.html
Two Dead After Gliders Collide In Germany
https://www.republicworld.com/world-...n-germany.html
I don't think two gliders were gliding in controlled airspace..
Yeah, fair enough, makes sense. But to determine all of those parameters there'd have to be an investigation right?
For the Flarm ‘salesmen’ to consider. Over in fully flarm land we gets this:
Two Dead After Gliders Collide In Germany
https://www.republicworld.com/world-...n-germany.html
Two Dead After Gliders Collide In Germany
https://www.republicworld.com/world-...n-germany.html
Whenever you have multiple aircraft operating in close proximity you have a chance of collision. It's a small chance but always there, no different to driving a car. What can happen with ATC and FLARM, ACAS is the pilots can get lazy and rely on said functions to save them, when eyes open and good radio procedure are the best defense to start with. Look what happens when cars are given prototype autopilots, youtube filled with idiots in the passenger seat filming the car drive itself. A system designed for open highways but people using it in cluttered city streets and wonder why it sometimes hits a pedestrian...
Near airports you have a much higher risk as pilots are focusing on the approach and landing with most attention on the runway. This is why lookout and traffic awareness should be stressed in training and also an orderly predictable traffic pattern established for any airport. Gliders also have unique problems in that they circle around looking for thermals so not as much straight line and predictable, they also congregate around launch sites. A savvy powered flight pilot should avoid these areas if they have no business there to reduce the chance of collision, after all they are marked on the maps for a reason. If you are to transit the area be on your toes and keep a very good lookout.
I’ve used Tcad for going on a quarter century now and find it fairly useless in an uncontrolled circuit area. I constantly hit the mute button because it distracts from my look-out.
In an IFR situation or a ‘set piece’ flight under full ATC control is where Tcas/Tcad has the most use.
FWIW, here's the ABC's report:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-...rash/101716312
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-...rash/101716312
ATSB chief commissioner Angus Mitchell said it was a "long-established government policy" to prioritise resources on investigations with the potential to deliver the greatest public benefit.
Mr Mitchell said mid-air collisions were rare and any ATSB investigation would be "unlikely to yield new safety learnings for the aviation industry". He said there was "self-administration arrangements" for the recreational sector to undertake its own accident investigations. "Where requested and as resourcing permits the ATSB may assist sport and recreation aviation organisations," Mr Mitchell said. "The ATSB empathises with the next of kin who have lost loved ones in the Kybong accident and are seeking answers as to how the accident occurred."
Mr Mitchell said mid-air collisions were rare and any ATSB investigation would be "unlikely to yield new safety learnings for the aviation industry". He said there was "self-administration arrangements" for the recreational sector to undertake its own accident investigations. "Where requested and as resourcing permits the ATSB may assist sport and recreation aviation organisations," Mr Mitchell said. "The ATSB empathises with the next of kin who have lost loved ones in the Kybong accident and are seeking answers as to how the accident occurred."
FWIW, here's the ABC's report:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-...rash/101716312
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-...rash/101716312
Hmmm.. I see this comment:
“..People have died … an investigation would be very valuable for all pilots … to know what happened, because a mid-air collision is something that can happen to any aircraft..”
I think we has a fair idea what happened. Why..?
I’d ask the question - what if an ATSB investigation notes the ages of the pilots involved and the limited medical requirements to retain their flying ‘privileges’. I wonder, will there be a clamouring for mandatory pilot grounding after age 65..
I think the ATSB have a fair idea of the ‘why’
I’d ask the question - what if an ATSB investigation notes the ages of the pilots involved and the limited medical requirements to retain their flying ‘privileges’. I wonder, will there be a clamouring for mandatory pilot grounding after age 65..
I think the ATSB have a fair idea of the ‘why’
I think the ATSB have a fair idea of the ‘why’
If we stick with the "Mr Mitchell said mid-air collisions were rare and any ATSB investigation would be "unlikely to yield new safety learnings for the aviation industry"" as the last word on this incident, maybe, at least we still get to fly..
Last edited by PiperCameron; 13th Dec 2022 at 02:46.
If you ask that question, I'm not at all sure I, for one, want to hear the answer!
If we stick with the "Mr Mitchell said mid-air collisions were rare and any ATSB investigation would be "unlikely to yield new safety learnings for the aviation industry"" as the last word on this incident, maybe, at least we still get to fly..
If we stick with the "Mr Mitchell said mid-air collisions were rare and any ATSB investigation would be "unlikely to yield new safety learnings for the aviation industry"" as the last word on this incident, maybe, at least we still get to fly..
Some comments from the article:
..Gliding Australia president Steve Pegler said the ATSB should "absolutely" be investigating.
..Recreational Aviation Australia (RAAus) has echoed the call.
..Caboolture Gliding Club president Garrett Russell … an investigation would be very valuable for all pilots … to know what happened,
I think some forget that the reason average Australians of all ages can fly as pilots is the regulations are not as strict for light aircraft and gliders. If we want airline type safety levels then most private pilots will not be able to afford to fly.. apart from Dick Smith…… but he’s over 65, so will be grounded anyway…
I ride motorbikes on public roads. I do Not call for the ATSB to investigate all motorbike accidents.. What they going to say.. add two wheels, a seatbelt, and a roll cage to all motorbikes……
Well, whadya know.. the ATSB have decided to step in after all!! 
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...rt/ae-2022-005
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...rt/ae-2022-005