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Wheels-Up at Leongatha

Old 20th Aug 2022, 01:13
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Actually not a bad idea to take photos, for various reasons, from a safe location. Don't offer them to the press or post to the public, they can come in handy if damage is disputed by the owner/insurance/offender, don't publish them in public. Same as car accidents, good idea to have pictures of the damage should stuff be further damaged during recovery or for other reasons. I find dashcam posters funny, half of those I see incriminate the driver of the dashcam vehicle as part responsible so that they could go from being the victim to being 50/50 responsible for costs due to not driving to the conditions or other small get out of jail the offender could use against them. There's also been a number of pictures posted from aircraft that have resulted in interest from the governing bodies. Hence why you rarely see pictures of non pilots in the flight deck on airliners anymore etc...

And feeling silly that you missed a NOTAM is not a reason not to tell ATS or other traffic. If the NOTAM was issued close to or after your departure then you were unaware of it. If unsure say something. Many times I've asked another pilot about a door open on the rear of their jet and they've said it's just the APU or something else that's supposed to be there. Not my type so I don't know whats supposed to be open or not. Always having chats with AROs and safety cars about small issues around airports just in case they don't know, they usually offer some simple answer of why and off I go. ATS will never bite your head off for reporting something that could be a safety hazard, worst they will do is say there is already a NOTAM or something.
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Old 20th Aug 2022, 01:39
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To the OP PC.
Just curious. What training (flying) were you conducting that day?
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Old 20th Aug 2022, 03:45
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What would I do? Id check the runway is clear after the PUF checks on final and if not, go around. And if another suitable runway is not available (or not covered in debris) Id divert to my alternate (which Id be required to carry fuel for considering YLEG has no TAF).

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Old 20th Aug 2022, 09:05
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Coincidentally, I had a call from an airfield operator today who wanted to be able to advise pilots via their cameras that the airfield is closed due to a wet runway or perhaps cattle grazing.

That got me thinking, so I created a URL for them to access to close the airport which updates the banner on the image. They hit another URL to open it again.

Great for pilots who's eyes are constantly in the cockpit and too lazy to check the runway (tongue in cheek I know, however it all helps).

I'll set it up for Leongatha. I won't put any mention of the airport actually being open, as that would be a liability can of worms, but can get away with closing it via the image.


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Old 21st Aug 2022, 01:50
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
As you’re a ‘newbie’, PC, I’d ask you to reflect on whether you’d appreciate photos being taken and published by another pilot if you’d been in the left seat of UOV as it came to a scraping rest on that runway.

I was recently among a number of people who assisted a pilot after an apparent ‘wheels up’ landing at a place that will remain nameless. After asking the pilot a number of questions to help me to confirm the pilot was not injured, I assured the pilot that I would not be posting any details or photos of the aircraft on PPRuNe. It’s the very last thing that the pilot needs and it in no way contributes to safety.

I don’t know why the aircraft whose pilot I assisted apparently landed without the undercarriage extended, and you don’t know why UOV ended up in the circumstances it did. It’s none of our business, other than for the purposes you (correctly) identify: Always check that a runway’s clear before landing. Always. Questions as to why an aircraft ended wheels up on a runway are for ATSB and CASA and insurance companies to work out and, in time, we might find out the course of events which led to the unfortunate outcome.

Another tip FWIW: Be careful publishing photos that appear to be taken in the circuit by you from the ‘left seat’ as PIC. At the point in the circuit and the height at which a couple of the photos you’ve posted were taken, good airmanship would probably have the PIC concentrating on more important things than taking photos.
"And a happy new year to you, too, SSD.
I thought an aircraft blocking a runway used by RPT jets was PPRuNe-worthy. It was certainly NOTAM-worthy.
Lighten up, big fella."

This you above LB? You'll probably say something along the lines of "Well, I didn't publish photos", what's the real difference here when you've posted Rego and Location? Oh and as someone that has been in an incident before (not wheels up), long as my face and name aren't in it, I couldn't care less, could get the photos and info off the eventual ATSB report anyway.
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Old 21st Aug 2022, 02:20
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Well, I didn’t publish photos…

And the location and rego was important because folks inbound might be interested (given that I posted as soon as the pilot announced being disabled on the runway and I didn’t know the aircraft type)…

And ‘someone in the know’ then posted that the cause was a blown tyre (nosewheel if I recall correctly?)

So the reason for the ‘disabled on the runway’ call was posted, and from that point no one had room to speculate that it was a ‘wheels up’.

Lighten up, big fella.
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Old 21st Aug 2022, 04:08
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I think it's poor form to post pictures or videos of others misfortune without their permission. Giving information out on callsign or type and what happened or a bit of idle speculation is a different kettle of fish as long as no names are mentioned, after all a concerned owner may not have heard about the situation or others that need to be in the loop. Pictures of damaged and crashed aircraft in the public can suddenly end up in the press and be used completely opposite to anything that will help better aviation or safety.
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Old 22nd Aug 2022, 01:14
  #28 (permalink)  
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Thanks all, good discussion here - please keep it up so we can all learn something.

To answer a few questions:
1. The purpose of my flight that day was to nav to YLEG with a pilot friend of mine for some touch & goes, since
(a) it was a nice day, and
(b) because of (a) I couldn't get a YMMB circuit booking. The wind was 3-4kts (ie. fairly calm) at YLEG, favouring RWY 04, but not excluding RWY 36 as a suitable alternate.

2. LB, I'm not going to discuss my flight in detail, since it's not relevant here, but suffice to say I had obtained PPR and the airport was not closed. There was no-one else on the CTAF nor anyone to be seen anywhere airside at any time whilst I was there. I'm well aware of the dangers of what the Americans call the "Moose Stall". I had a safety pilot friend with me, qualified to take the controls and our flight profile was, at no point, unsafe.

2. My intent for this thread, as indicated in the OP, had nothing to do with the incident as such which happened some time before I got there, or anyone associated with it, other than to:
(a) Provide full disclosure (date, location, description) of a situation I found so bizarre that if I didn't see it for myself I would never believe it would happen (surely no-one just leaves an aircraft sitting on an active runway, shuts the door and walks away - do they??), and
(b) Highlight (especially for low-time pilots like myself) expecting the unexpected - even if it's something so out there that you can't quite comprehend the reality of it at the time, and
(c) Go over my thinking processes from the initial "WTF?!?" through to my reasons for not calling it in and whether there's anything I should have done different (refer posts #11 & 12).

3. In my experience of other public forums, "no pics and it didn't happen". It's very easy to post about how "I survived flying through a raging cyclone!!" just to get a reaction, when in reality you're just making stuff up to get likes. All: I've deleted the close-ups from the OP, but left the wide angles to show how difficult it is to spot a white aircraft parked on a white centerline if you're not looking for it.

4. All I'll say about the incident aircraft is that I think the pilot did an excellent job, landing right on centerline!! I wish my all landings were that accurate all the time and hope that I could do that well in the same situation.

For a non-flying analogy: I'm sure we've all seen cars parked off the side of rural highways and driven past unthinkingly at 100kph.. but what would we do if said car was parked more toward the middle of the lane instead? Would we stop? Or simply go around it and continue our journey?? Food for thought.

Summary: It does seem with lots of hindsight, that the right thing to do in a similar situation is to climb up to altitude and report it to ML CTR, NOTAM or not... because:
(a) even though (fortunately) not the case in this incident - we looked - there might have been someone in the aircraft, unconscious and in need of medical help, and
(b) somebody else might have planning to arrive soon after and it would be safer for their arrival planning if they knew RWY04 was, at that time, not useable.

Agreed?

Last edited by PiperCameron; 22nd Aug 2022 at 01:35.
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Old 22nd Aug 2022, 01:25
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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I think you're over-analysing it to be honest. There's no play-book for every aviation eventuality. If you've done a wheels up and no fire truck races out to you, you've got little choice on what you can do. It's not like you're going to stand there waving your arms and hope people will see you before seeing your disabled aircraft.

Flat tyres on the runway are not at all uncommon, I've had a couple myself.



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Old 22nd Aug 2022, 01:39
  #30 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post
Coincidentally, I had a call from an airfield operator today who wanted to be able to advise pilots via their cameras that the airfield is closed due to a wet runway or perhaps cattle grazing.

That got me thinking, so I created a URL for them to access to close the airport which updates the banner on the image. They hit another URL to open it again.

Great for pilots who's eyes are constantly in the cockpit and too lazy to check the runway (tongue in cheek I know, however it all helps).

I'll set it up for Leongatha. I won't put any mention of the airport actually being open, as that would be a liability can of worms, but can get away with closing it via the image.
FWIW, I think that's a great idea!! It may not be "official", but anything that helps mitigate the Startle Factor has to be a good thing.
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Old 22nd Aug 2022, 01:41
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post
I think you're over-analysing it to be honest. There's no play-book for every aviation eventuality. If you've done a wheels up and no fire truck races out to you, you've got little choice on what you can do. It's not like you're going to stand there waving your arms and hope people will see you before seeing your disabled aircraft.

Flat tyres on the runway are not at all uncommon, I've had a couple myself.
Fair point.. thanks!
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Old 22nd Aug 2022, 07:19
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Originally Posted by PiperCameron View Post
FWIW, I think that's a great idea!! It may not be "official", but anything that helps mitigate the Startle Factor has to be a good thing.
Leongatha is a private airfield. You ned to ring and get permission to land there. It is used for other activities as well, you cant assume you can land there when it suits you. Frankly, if you are arrogant enough to assume you can land on someones private proprty without the simple couretesy of ringing first, then you deserve all that you get.
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Old 22nd Aug 2022, 08:05
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Originally Posted by Old Akro View Post
Leongatha is a private airfield. You ned to ring and get permission to land there. It is used for other activities as well, you cant assume you can land there when it suits you. Frankly, if you are arrogant enough to assume you can land on someones private proprty without the simple couretesy of ringing first, then you deserve all that you get.
Maybe you missed the bit where I mentioned I not only had PPR before leaving Moorabbin but also spoke to the ARO asking after the pilot's welfare after the fact?? I might be new here, but I'm neither arrogant nor completely stupid and your 'simple courtesy' in re-reading my Post #29 above before you randomly sling mud would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 24th Aug 2022, 16:26
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Perhaps the ‘wheels up’ landing was caused by the pilot being distracted taking photos on the approach?
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Old 25th Aug 2022, 23:39
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Originally Posted by Beryllium Erbium View Post
Is there not a bigger truism in aviation than this?
Well, Kingsford-Smith was often quoted as saying something like "An aviators life has its ups and its downs, but the only hard thing about flying is the ground" and a modern rendition might be "Only approach something at the speed you'd like to hit it".. but, yes, you're quite right.

Only one thing I'm still not 100% sure of in all this: What is ATC's approach to NOTAMs??

I know you're supposed to check them just like ERSA entries are supposed to be updated by the aerodrome operators and there are supposed to be big white 'X's to indicate a runway is closed - but stuff happens, right? Can one (hypothetically) get roasted by ATC for not checking NOTAMs before arriving in the circuit??

If I'd (hypothetically) done the 'right' thing and reported this to ML CTR how stupid should I feel for a negative response to "Have you checked the NOTAMs?"? It's an ALA, for crying out loud - not Melbourne Airport!
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Old 26th Aug 2022, 00:11
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Can one (hypothetically) get roasted by ATC for not checking NOTAMs before arriving in the circuit??
If you're VFR in G arriving at a 'non-towered' or 'unregistered' or 'uncertified' or whatever kind of aerodrome it's called these days, ATC would have no knowledge of nor interest in whether you've checked NOTAMs. CASA might have an interest.

If I'd (hypothetically) done the 'right' thing and reported this to ML CTR how stupid should I feel for a negative response to "Have you checked the NOTAMs?"? It's an ALA, for crying out loud - not Melbourne Airport!
I've have never heard Australian ATC respond in that way. Quite the opposite. They might ask whether you're able to contact the ARO or point of contact for the location detailed in ERSA.
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Old 26th Aug 2022, 00:16
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
If you're VFR in G arriving at a 'non-towered' or 'unregistered' or 'uncertified' or whatever kind of aerodrome it's called these days, ATC would have no knowledge of nor interest in whether you've checked NOTAMs. CASA might have an interest.

I've have never heard Australian ATC respond in that way. Quite the opposite. They might ask whether you're able to contact the ARO or point of contact for the location detailed in ERSA.
Thanks, LB. Good to know!
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Old 26th Aug 2022, 02:23
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Originally Posted by PiperCameron View Post
Can one (hypothetically) get roasted by ATC for not checking NOTAMs before arriving in the circuit??

If I'd (hypothetically) done the 'right' thing and reported this to ML CTR how stupid should I feel for a negative response to "Have you checked the NOTAMs?"?
Too many PPLs seem to think ATC are the police and get scared to talk to them (sometimes when it would be wise that they did or better they sought their assistance).

They are just people doing their job. Sometimes they are having bad days and may get a bit short with us (just like pilots sometimes get short with them) but they are not the police, they are there to assist us.

The most likely response from ATC if you didn't check the NOTAMs (and should have) would be "thanks there currently is a NOTAM for YXXX" (perhaps with a sigh if you are the 12th pilot to tell them) and then they will pick up their coffee cup and carry on with their job whilst 5 other pilots will say under their breath, "thanks - glad you said something, I didn't know that".

And would CASA care if for some reason found out about a PPL who reported something that indicated that one day they hadn't checked the NOTAM about West Whoop Whoop? They have bigger things to do but say perhaps they were doing a ramp check and found this out, they might have a friendly chat and suggest you tighten up your act a bit and maybe give you a free CASA knee pad and pen. You almost certainly are not going to lose your licence or get fined or anything... (assuming you are not a known serial offender in which case it is more likely they will arrange for some remedial training).

my 2c, others may have different opinions.
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Old 26th Aug 2022, 02:50
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Thanks, Jonkster. I hope I never have to deal with something like this again, if it does I'll be sure to be one of those PPLs who talk to them next time!
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Old 26th Aug 2022, 03:16
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The people who are in the habit of not checking NOTAMs (or even ERSA) eventually ‘throw themselves into’ the CASA ‘fishing boat’.

For example, I’m aware of an aerodrome the sealed runway of which is occasionally used for car rallies/trials/competitions. The sealed runway is, of course, NOTAMed unavailable.

The people who announce joining a circuit leg for that runway have probably not checked NOTAMs. No real harm done – although the organisers monitoring the CTAF get a bit tense - unless…

Old mate just continues the circuit (and presumably marvels at all the vehicles and people scattering off the runway when he’s on short final). The organisers of the event get a bit tetchy about that, especially when they’ve been yelling “the runway’s closed” on the CTAF.

Then there are the people who don’t check ERSA to confirm things like the circuit direction. Set up a comfy chair with a good view near the fuel bowser, grab a snack and watch those folks identify themselves then taxi to your doorstep.
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