Mount Disappointment helicopter crash 31/3/2022
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JTI was the one in question The lost boys | Flight Safety Australia adds a bit more to the other report. Fortunately, most of us manage, usually by good luck, to get enough experience to avoid these situations ...
There is little talk of cloud. The cameras at the Kilmore gap will tell a significant story if they store historical images. The cloud at Romsey around 40kms to the west was as good as on the ground and that is at 1,000ft. Mt Disappointment elevation is 2,640ft. The windsock at Romsey appears to be showing a NW breeze.
Some years back with the advent of the iPad and the 'Children of the Magenta Line' I had an enlightening experience with a pilot I was checking: when I took away his iPad he was totally and utterly lost, not even being able to identify Mansfield which was <5nm from us at the time. He was locked on to the Magenta Line and didn't have any sort of paper chart nor map to back up his flight.
Sign of the times
Moderator
when I took away his iPad he was totally and utterly lost
That's sad enough to be tragic. Much the same with the electronic calculator crowd who couldn't run a mental sum if their lives depended on it. I can only hope that more instructors (and examiners) do the same sort of thing as you did. It wouldn't take long for the message to get around the Industry.
Another one which saddens me is the steam driven whizz wheel. OK, pilots can use the electronic version. However, the examiner still requires a display of some sort of competence to pass the various pilot exams. Being involved with theory training, these days, I have seen so many who have utterly no idea of why they are doing what they thought they had learnt (parrot fashion) correctly. I even had one supposedly university level class in recent times where several of them complained vigorously and bitterly when I presented some basic math background as to why you did this and that with the wheel.
One can only wonder where it might end ?
That's sad enough to be tragic. Much the same with the electronic calculator crowd who couldn't run a mental sum if their lives depended on it. I can only hope that more instructors (and examiners) do the same sort of thing as you did. It wouldn't take long for the message to get around the Industry.
Another one which saddens me is the steam driven whizz wheel. OK, pilots can use the electronic version. However, the examiner still requires a display of some sort of competence to pass the various pilot exams. Being involved with theory training, these days, I have seen so many who have utterly no idea of why they are doing what they thought they had learnt (parrot fashion) correctly. I even had one supposedly university level class in recent times where several of them complained vigorously and bitterly when I presented some basic math background as to why you did this and that with the wheel.
One can only wonder where it might end ?
when I took away his iPad he was totally and utterly lost
That's sad enough to be tragic. Much the same with the electronic calculator crowd who couldn't run a mental sum if their lives depended on it. I can only hope that more instructors (and examiners) do the same sort of thing as you did. It wouldn't take long for the message to get around the Industry.
Another one which saddens me is the steam driven whizz wheel. OK, pilots can use the electronic version. However, the examiner still requires a display of some sort of competence to pass the various pilot exams. Being involved with theory training, these days, I have seen so many who have utterly no idea of why they are doing what they thought they had learnt (parrot fashion) correctly. I even had one supposedly university level class in recent times where several of them complained vigorously and bitterly when I presented some basic math background as to why you did this and that with the wheel.
One can only wonder where it might end ?
That's sad enough to be tragic. Much the same with the electronic calculator crowd who couldn't run a mental sum if their lives depended on it. I can only hope that more instructors (and examiners) do the same sort of thing as you did. It wouldn't take long for the message to get around the Industry.
Another one which saddens me is the steam driven whizz wheel. OK, pilots can use the electronic version. However, the examiner still requires a display of some sort of competence to pass the various pilot exams. Being involved with theory training, these days, I have seen so many who have utterly no idea of why they are doing what they thought they had learnt (parrot fashion) correctly. I even had one supposedly university level class in recent times where several of them complained vigorously and bitterly when I presented some basic math background as to why you did this and that with the wheel.
One can only wonder where it might end ?
I don't disagree with the general sentiment and I am glad that I did my PPL through to CPL pre Ipad and GPS. To be fair to the younger generation though I don't think they are even given the choice of learning techniques that doesn't involve technology. Even the basic trainers have glass cockpits. I always had a quiet chuckle to myself when the bloke in the LHS pulled out a calculator to work out ToD. Reference weight is 60t add 1nm for every tonne above and then add blah blah blah for wind. Then ATC would get you to slow to 250kts as soon as you commenced descent and there was no longer time to pull out the calculator. I dont see it done anymore as they just rely on the vdev scale.
Don't want to drift too far, but I often ponder how some people would survive if GNSS didn't work for a day or the internet didn't work for a day. Just a day.
When one considers some of the circumstances that lead people to ring 000, I suspect a lot of people would be in the foetal position.
A week? Anarchy.
/drift off
When one considers some of the circumstances that lead people to ring 000, I suspect a lot of people would be in the foetal position.
A week? Anarchy.
/drift off
Don't want to drift too far, but I often ponder how some people would survive if GNSS didn't work for a day or the internet didn't work for a day. Just a day.
Don't want to drift too far, but I often ponder how some people would survive if GNSS didn't work for a day or the internet didn't work for a day. Just a day.
When one considers some of the circumstances that lead people to ring 000, I suspect a lot of people would be in the foetal position.
A week? Anarchy.
/drift off
When one considers some of the circumstances that lead people to ring 000, I suspect a lot of people would be in the foetal position.
A week? Anarchy.
/drift off
Moderator
One of the big problems is that piloting and university have no correlation.
Your post rather sums up my thoughts.The kids to whom I referred were quintessential children of the magenta line folk ...
Your post rather sums up my thoughts.The kids to whom I referred were quintessential children of the magenta line folk ...
It's not just following the magenta line that's the issue, it's the lack of having to even study a route in any detail prior to launching that bites people in the arse, combined with knowing that you don't have to actually navigate by time / distance / heading methods and get regular pinpoints to check your planning (or read the terrain and track crawl at lower levels).
I ferried a machine from Brisbane to Cairns a few years back and had the route planned on WACs all the way, with reference to ERC for airspace. The bloke who came with me had his iPad with OzRunways, happy to just follow the line, and while I was impressed with the capabilities of the electronic gear, simply being able to drag out the map and identify features enroute was so much better for awareness, I found.
The bottom line, I suppose, is that flying schools need to be teaching pilots to take advantage of electronics but have the common dog to be able to build and keep a good mental picture as well, and be able to quickly do an inflight replan taking into account distance, time, fuel, terrain, airspace and last light when the iPad stops working. Nobody should be able to get any licence bar perhaps an RPL unless they can do that.
I ferried a machine from Brisbane to Cairns a few years back and had the route planned on WACs all the way, with reference to ERC for airspace. The bloke who came with me had his iPad with OzRunways, happy to just follow the line, and while I was impressed with the capabilities of the electronic gear, simply being able to drag out the map and identify features enroute was so much better for awareness, I found.
The bottom line, I suppose, is that flying schools need to be teaching pilots to take advantage of electronics but have the common dog to be able to build and keep a good mental picture as well, and be able to quickly do an inflight replan taking into account distance, time, fuel, terrain, airspace and last light when the iPad stops working. Nobody should be able to get any licence bar perhaps an RPL unless they can do that.
Wouldn't it be 'character building' if every flight review had to be carried out on the basis of a demonstrated paper/pencil/prayer wheel manual flight planning process, followed by a 'GPS-off' nav in accordance with the plan, interrupted by a diversion and practise forced landing?
Moderator
The bottom line, I suppose, is that flying schools need to be teaching pilots to take advantage of electronics but have
That's a pretty reasonable thought.
Wouldn't it be 'character building' if every flight review
Indeed, but probably a bit too much. However, the principle is good. Were a review to include an unannounced section where the examiner requires the candidate to do some steam driven work, and this was known to be a requirement, then it probably would follow that overall backup standards might improve significantly ?
That's a pretty reasonable thought.
Wouldn't it be 'character building' if every flight review
Indeed, but probably a bit too much. However, the principle is good. Were a review to include an unannounced section where the examiner requires the candidate to do some steam driven work, and this was known to be a requirement, then it probably would follow that overall backup standards might improve significantly ?
But it creates a paradox. How can a candidate be prepared to do "some" randomly-chosen surprise steam driven work, without having prepared to do "all" of that work? I'm talking about the surprise occurring in the middle of a flight review.
I think the concept is important to safety, but I don't know how it can practicably be implemented now that we've crossed the paperless Rubicon.
I think the concept is important to safety, but I don't know how it can practicably be implemented now that we've crossed the paperless Rubicon.
Don't want to drift too far, but I often ponder how some people would survive if GNSS didn't work for a day or the internet didn't work for a day. Just a day.
When one considers some of the circumstances that lead people to ring 000, I suspect a lot of people would be in the foetal position.
A week? Anarchy.
/drift off
When one considers some of the circumstances that lead people to ring 000, I suspect a lot of people would be in the foetal position.
A week? Anarchy.
/drift off
Omega was the bee's knees when I was flying off the north west of WA, with 2nm accuracy. only 43 years ago. After Decca DANAC in the North Sea it was the future (at the time)
Moderator
Omega was the bee's knees when I was flying off the north west of WA, with 2nm accuracy.
AN had Omega on (at least) the 727LRs. Commonplace PER-SYD to have the system roll the aircraft out over BIK near as on track ... we were spoiled rotten back then.
AN had Omega on (at least) the 727LRs. Commonplace PER-SYD to have the system roll the aircraft out over BIK near as on track ... we were spoiled rotten back then.
You mean the old “selective availability” being re-introduced? Surprised if it hasn’t happened already.
In the '80's Esso had their own Omega chain in Bass Strait to support offshore helo operations, aircraft system provided a continious position fix to an onshore operator for SAR purposes. Later used GPS when the system became available.