Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions
Reload this Page >

Fresh Grade 3 Instructor with $120,000 debt. Driving street sweepers...

The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

Fresh Grade 3 Instructor with $120,000 debt. Driving street sweepers...

Old 15th Mar 2021, 10:20
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1
Fresh Grade 3 Instructor with $120,000 debt. Driving street sweepers...

This is going to be depressing but looking for help on whether my situation is normal or not and what to do.

I finished all of my training at Moorabbin (CPL, IR, ATPL) under VET FEE HELP in early 2019. I was told early to mid last year by the school that I should get an instructor rating because the industry will need more instructors (during COVID) then any other type of pilot. So I signed up and did the Instructor rating (VET FEE HELP) with the same school which was alot of work. I finished and of our entire group (11 of us including me), they only hired ONE person. The rest of us have been desperately hunting around Moorabbin and Essendon with no luck whatsoever. Four of us in the group have even road tripped (one car, 4 dudes) out to aerodromes in Victoria trying to get a G3 job. Almost all of them are saying that "we don't hire instructors trained by other schools". This came at a huge shock to me as I was under the belief that an instructor rating is a standardised course across Australia.

Nobody in our group, except one girl, managed to get a job with the same school that we did our IR with.

Is this normal? We feel like we've wasted $30,000 each and being misled by the school... We all finished late last year and I've been desperate to find ANY work which adds another problem. I am "overqualified"!! I applied to some corporate jobs and a few of the HR people have told me that I am too qualified for the role! Last week, I started driving street sweepers on a temporary 6 month contract to try and not fall into a complete depression. One guy in our group is already seeing a psychologist for anxiety as a result of this situation... he has 2 young kids and feels like he has let his family down.

Does anyone have any experience with instructor jobs and the mess we are in? I mean, there is something seriously wrong with this system where instructors are only hired by the school that trained them? Really?

Thanks for reading and any input will be useful...
driftking92 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2021, 20:00
  #2 (permalink)  

Victim of a bored god

Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 1996
Location: Utopia
Posts: 6,788
We would normally move this post to the "Newbie and Flying Training Advice" thread and it is a repetitious subject, having previously been aired dozens of times in recent years. There is also a similar thread active in this forum in respect to "going north seeking employment". I suspect in general that too may be a futile solution in the current employment market.

In the current pilot employment market, there is no solution to driftking92's dilemma. The GA industry has been progressively destroyed over many years, removing the best training ground for newly graduated CPLs. The Covid pandemic, with so many highly qualified and experienced airline pilots on stand down, furlough or leave without pay, will deny employment and career avenues to most newly graduated CPL's for many years.

I seriously doubt any here can make constructive aviation related suggestions to driftking92, however I am hoping that other hopeful wannabes will read this thread and not be sucked in by the ludicrous assurances being given by some (but not all) flying training establishments. Obtain an assurance of some type of Instructor employment post course completion, or go elsewhere.

The cold, hard facts are that there are negligible jobs available to fresh CPL graduates, a situation which is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.
tail wheel is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2021, 20:25
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Equatorial
Age: 48
Posts: 818
There are 777 drivers pulling beers, 737 drivers working in Covid hotels, 320 drivers..........

Yes it is tough times but, DO NOT DESPAIR. Stay current, keep networking and DO NOT GIVE UP.

30 years ago I couldn’t tell you how many knock backs and no’s I got whilst beating the street as a freshly minted CPL. It was a tough time, constantly dejected, depressed, told by operators it was my own fault, oh it goes on. However I did not give up. Scored a job flying out bush and never looked back. Had a varied career.

Leady is correct to a point, however there are jobs, yes highly sought after and hard to get, however they are out there.

The most important thing is DO NOT GIVE UP. If it takes professional counselling to achieve this, then do it. There is no shame in assisting your mental health. I am not ashamed to admit I have talked to a mental health professional in the past.
Global Aviator is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2021, 20:36
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Ex-pat Aussie in the UK
Posts: 5,326
I mean, there is something seriously wrong with this system where instructors are only hired by the school that trained them? Really?
The simple fact is that schools know that jobs are scarce, and highly valued. They also know that they make quite a bit of money from an Instructor Rating. If they have a job position available, they know that they can use that to sell an Instructor Rating, and thus make a bit of cash from that job offer. That's why they see giving that job to someone who already has an Instructor Rating (and no experience, so no value to add in the form of training or testing approvals) as a missed opportunity for them to sell a rating course.

So, yes, your Instructor Rating is a standardised rating. But you're not going to get a job at any place that offers Instructor Rating courses, unless there's a bit of a boom.

And yes, it's always been that way - I did my rating back in 1989, and it was pretty well known then that you didn't do a rating without an offer to work (even if only as a casual) at the end of it. Your school should have known that.
Checkboard is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2021, 21:21
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,056
During Covid I employed a guy on Airtasker to help with a garden job. He was an international 777 pilot. Itís tough for everyone. Expectations need to be aligned, hopefully temporarily. If youíve got a vet fee loan, be thankful that itís not a bank loan or from a loan shark as youíve ultimately got no rush to pay it back again.
Squawk7700 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2021, 21:22
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 203
Schools will generally only hire Grade 3 instructors they’ve trained themselves as you are a known commodity. Although it is standardised you know the way they like it done and how there system works. Once you’ve got experience as an instructor moving schools is generally easier. Occasionally you will get lucky and find smaller schools that need an instructor, but again they often have connections with other schools that they like to get there instructors from. Although the school hasn’t done the right thing by you all, did you ever ask the question about the need for 11 new instructors where you were? All you can do is keep going in and asking if there is work, networking and trying other schools.
engine out is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2021, 01:05
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Equatorial
Age: 48
Posts: 818
There was a post supporting mental health and using professionals. It seems to have disappeared???
Global Aviator is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2021, 01:15
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cab of a Freight Train
Age: 38
Posts: 787
It was mine. I self-deleted it as I thought I could do a bit better without the attempt at being funny regarding the suggestions to "get an MR ticket" etc. Probably would have been better to edit it, as at least that wouldn't have confused the topic reply notification emails though!

(Almost) reproduced below:

Originally Posted by Global Aviator
If it takes professional counselling to achieve this, then do it. There is no shame in assisting your mental health. I am not ashamed to admit I have talked to a mental health professional in the past.
Without a doubt that is the single best bit of advice I've seen given on PPRuNe in many years.

As someone who gave up flying for a career to pursue another passion, it took another, external, view to make me see it wasn't the end of the world. As it turned out, the new career has given me the opportunity to build an RV-9 that I now fly for fun. I've since used the services of professional psychs and the company Employee Assistance Programs a couple of times over the years. I'm not advocating you pull the pin, but rather don't be afraid or ashamed to ask for help if you need it, to get you in the right headspace.

You're not the first, and won't be the last either.
KRviator is online now  
Old 16th Mar 2021, 01:32
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 942
Sadly it is normal, you have been scammed and the VET money, as well as the hint of maybe a job at the end of it, has made it really easy for them.

When will the government stop facilitating these scams with taxpayers money?

Clare Prop is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2021, 03:34
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 21
Written in the exact same style as your other posts Petra 👏🏻
Middle.Marker is online now  
Old 16th Mar 2021, 03:36
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Australia the Awesome
Posts: 335
Post a picture of the cockpit of your street sweeper. It might be as cool as the C209NG set up!!
Roj approved is online now  
Old 16th Mar 2021, 03:46
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cab of a Freight Train
Age: 38
Posts: 787
Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
Post a picture of the cockpit of your street sweeper. It might be as cool as the C209NG set up!!
Not my current steed, but 'close enough'. The XRN Locomotive cab, in 360*. I've yet to fly anything with a microwave & kettle within arms reach!
KRviator is online now  
Old 16th Mar 2021, 04:04
  #13 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by KRviator View Post
Not my current steed, but 'close enough'. The XRN Locomotive cab, in 360*. I've yet to fly anything with a microwave & kettle within arms reach!
Iím jealous.. mine does not have a microwave!!
SOPS is online now  
Old 16th Mar 2021, 04:23
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: United States
Posts: 72
Its always been revolting to see Australian Flight Schools engage in the incestious process of
claiming, that they only hire instructors they train. When hiring is low, then you run a real chance of
paying out tens of thousands of dollars and not getting a job.

Then it seems that the very worst personalities are the ones who are able to play survivor and get to be hired
only to quit at the first better job. Its also a form of indentured slavery, once you start, you can't just quit when another job
comes up, you need those first solo's , you need the recommendations etc.

If you are thinking about doing an instructor rating, start looking at all your options, especially overseas
where you may be better off doing a foreign instructor rating first on a "student" visa, that gives you a work permit
right as part of the process. That at least will give you some adventure and more options if you want to go back
to the aviation hell called Australia.
SCPL_1988 is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2021, 05:34
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1998
Location: Mesopotamos
Posts: 1,596
When there is a downturn it's usually bad for both employees and employers (who often have more to lose). Rather than playing the mental health card because your expectations were not met, take it on the chin and do something else while keeping a finger in the industry - if you are still keen. Get to know some of your potential future employers by offering to do some of the less glamorous work part-time for minimum pay - also called networking. When things pick up again the first through into the empty flying seats will often be those that are known to the company. This is a universal subject which isn't taught at university, TAFE or college.

cattletruck is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2021, 13:02
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,511
Originally Posted by driftking92 View Post
...Nobody in our group, except one girl, managed to get a job with the same school that we did our IR with...
And what did she have that the guys didn't have to land her the only job?
gulliBell is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2021, 13:29
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,164
As a 50 year old was retrenched from a 737 overseas airline many years ago. Sat the written aptitude test at Moonee Ponds Junction to be a motor bike Postman. Easy test - couldn't miss. Even had my own Honda 50 motor bike so current in command on type

. Received a letter back say sorry chum - you failed the aptitude test. Became a taxi driver and learned all about the red light districts. No aptitude test required. Life's rich tapestry and all that jazz
Centaurus is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2021, 14:31
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: ._..._...
Posts: 302
Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
And what did she have that the guys didn't have to land her the only job?
Was about to say the same thing. What a surprise!
vee1-rotate is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2021, 14:47
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Ex-pat Aussie in the UK
Posts: 5,326
And what did she have that the guys didn't have to land her the only job?
Was about to say the same thing. What a surprise!
She probably was good at the job, and lacked a sexist chip on her shoulder.
Checkboard is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2021, 20:36
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,056
In days gone by before this vet fee help stiff even existed, pilots would take out loans from the bank or elsewhere. If they didnít get a flying job straight away, they worked hard elsewhere to pay off the debt. Nowadays with these no-interest government loans, students keep moving from one vocation to the next and paying it off never becomes a focus, so this ďIíve got a $120k debtĒ card, is not anything like what it used to be.
Squawk7700 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.