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Touch & Go Advice

Old 22nd Oct 2020, 05:56
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Touch & Go Advice

Just wondering whether anyone has a guidance document or can point me in the direction on the inherent risks of conducting touch & go's during initial training - particularly in "high-ish" performance single pilot aircraft such as a turboprop or light jet etc...

Thanks in anticipation.

VH-MLE
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 07:47
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That's a big question on little information. Are you going from a Cessna single into a turbine? Are you concerned about touch-and-go v. full-stop and taxi around?

As a general guide, go to the FAA's "Airplane Flying Handbook (faa.gov) - they have lots of sensible (but generic) advice for people moving into higher performance, turbine, or light jet. And the POH for procedures, of course. But it's basically turn your landing config into a take-off config ... you certainly want some experience under supervision/instruction before you go out by yourself.
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 08:33
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Touch & go in complex aircraft is negative training. With higher speeds, greater weights and less tolerance for delay, the actions required to bring the thing to a stop (ground idle, spoilers, reverse, brakes) are what need to be reinforced, so a long runway where stop & go can be practiced provides more positive training.
Touch & go training is more relevant for beginners needing to learn the aiming point, sort out flare height, maintaining centreline, etc. PPL & basic CPL stuff.
Just remain aware of brake temperatures, so don’t overdo the braking!
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 09:17
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The Airplane Flying Handbook is great, lots of plagiarism though, particularly from Hurt and Davies
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 09:50
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On a jet transport aircraft on a T&G you are always above V1 and you dont know how much runway you really have left so you don't change your mind. Numerous examples of rejecting a T&G and it going wrong.
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 11:26
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Just when you thought you had Touch and Goes down pat!

This weeks topic is.....

How many pages will this go for?
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 11:43
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Originally Posted by Mach E Avelli View Post
Touch & go in complex aircraft is negative training. With higher speeds, greater weights and less tolerance for delay, the actions required to bring the thing to a stop (ground idle, spoilers, reverse, brakes) are what need to be reinforced, so a long runway where stop & go can be practiced provides more positive training.
Touch & go training is more relevant for beginners needing to learn the aiming point, sort out flare height, maintaining centreline, etc. PPL & basic CPL stuff.
Just remain aware of brake temperatures, so don’t overdo the braking!
Agree to disagree.
I did my base training in February, it was an A319.

And if I was indeed a bit worried that it would feel weird, it felt just like a touch and go in a smaller aircraft.
Provided you have a long runway, it is very comfortable. We dit it on a 3500m runway, but my airline also does it on 2400m and 2800m runways.

After my turn, I took pictures of my colleagues. So I have very precise reconstructions of the events.
A touch and go, with no particular effort of doing it fast, took 1700 meters (from 50ft down to 50ft up)
With maximum manual braking, full reverse, you can bring the aircraft to a stop in about 700 meters.
The actions are very simple, touch down, no reverse, add a bit power, PM retracts flaps from full to 3, 2, TOGA. Simple as that.
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 12:01
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No issues at all - military do it all the time. Always used the maxim that if power is still at idle, you can stop. Once the power comes on, you are committed to get airborne. Always worth looking at the distance required to stop from threshold speed and make sure you choose a decent length runway to start with.
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 12:26
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My instructor in light aircraft early on insisted that I must not do touch and go’s for the first 5 solo circuit landings. Seems to be an instructional technique that’s fading away with these younger generations of instructors coming through.
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 13:31
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Touch and go is necessary with large aircraft to save very expensive time when the objective is to confirm simulator training in the actual landing phase.
Even with touch and goes we used to leave the gear down to assist with brake cooling. Doing full-stops would greatly exacerbate that problem - and of course be costly in terms of brake and tyre wear.
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 14:01
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Go around power, go around attitude, go around flaps (if applicable) gear up (if applicable and prudent) with positive climb...

Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 24th Oct 2020 at 03:13.
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 15:09
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Majuro in the Marshal Islands 1976. 7000 ft sea level runway nil wind. Instructor on 737-200 training new pilots to type. Would land and roll through to the end then 180 at the end and takeoff in reciprocal direction. A form of stop and go. Repeated exercise several times times. 40 minutes later taxied to tarmac for crew changeover only to have tyres deflated due fusible plugs operation caused by excessive heat build up.

Might have been wiser to leave the gear down for the whole exercise. But even then without brake temperature gauges there is way of knowing brake or tyre temperatures.
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 18:46
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And here we go mixing Money and Safety.
May be the old You have 2 bags the empty one is experience and the full is luck..... This i similar......
But lately the scoops are taken by companies with an excavator...... (latest is Boing but count is most of them)
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 22:39
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VH-MLE

You probably already know this but ...

The RAAF are using the PC21 for basic training. ROLR flights on Flightaware at East Sale are 1FTS students. Seem to be lots of racetrack patterns. At West Sale too.

Is any of the RAAF syllabus in the public domain?

I’m assuming the RAAF has many days (weeks?) of ground school & many hours sim work beforehand.
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 23:44
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My instructor in light aircraft early on insisted that I must not do touch and go’s for the first 5 solo circuit landings. Seems to be an instructional technique that’s fading away with these younger generations of instructors coming through.
My son's first solo was four touch and go's and a full stop. The instructor had told him to go and enjoy himself, so he did.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 00:19
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I tend to agree with Mach E Avelli on this one, there really is no gain from touch and go training in a modern transport type. The sims are all Level D, which means they replicate the aircraft characteristics, to negates the need for “base training”. (Yes, I know it’s not exactly the same, but close enough)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_flight_simulator

I am aware some authorities still require “base training”, but the risk really outweighs the reward as there is no time a touch and go will ever be required. Baulked landing and low level go arounds are a “normal” procedure that all crews should be versed in.

The real benefit from the touch and go sessions that I have done in 4 Jet endorsements has been to up the scan rate, get the mouth music going and manual manipulation, which leaves me with a nice appreciation of the way the aircraft flies. But doing this in the safe environment of the Sim is good enough, no point heightening the risk.

On smaller aircraft, without simulators, on a nice long runway, if done safely, it can provide the student with the above gains. But history will show, it is still a risky endeavour and all care should be taken.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 01:18
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Touch and goes, well I don't think they should be forbidden until after a certain number of full stops.

You do a full stop at my base airport and want to line up again you will burn so much fuel and you won't get on the damn runway until next year...I have seen situations where a touch and go landing would have been prudent right here on PPRuNe.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 08:35
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Oh boy.............I suppose you want us to wear a Hi Viz vest in the cockpit too....
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 09:39
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Not all sims are Cat D, so 3 landings/takeoffs 'for real' are required to complete the type rating endorsement for those.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 12:49
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I did base training in a 320, no issues but then I was closely supervised by a training standards captain and the runway was about 4km long.

Doing it single pilot as the OP mentions would be much higher workload with higher risk factors imho.

The manufacturers guidelines or your company manuals should specify how this operation would be performed shouldn't they?
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