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Moorabbin ATIS IA in VMC ?

Old 9th Aug 2020, 05:39
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Moorabbin ATIS IA in VMC ?

Hi. Just listened to the Moorabbin ATIS and it starts with:

Expect instrument approach. Wind.... Visibility in excess of 10 kilometres, cloud broken 3000 ft ...

Haven't flown in a few years so maybe this is a CASA DAS thing ??? Why advise of instrument approach in clear VMC ???

Cheers
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Old 9th Aug 2020, 07:32
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Possibly reduced staff and down to one runway due flight restrictions and as a result may be treating ops as Special VFR to limit aircraft in the zone.

That being said, weather has been a bit on and off all day and perhaps they were due to change the information.
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Old 9th Aug 2020, 07:53
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It will be so that Center will sequence you thru to MB Twr from the C Airspace above. You don't make Inst App's from the usual VFR App points.
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Old 9th Aug 2020, 08:46
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When it says to expect an instrument approach and the weather is clear, you will need to request a Special VFR clearance and you would approach from the normal approach points. Only one aircraft is in theory, allowed in the zone at the one time.
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Old 9th Aug 2020, 10:42
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In my experience MB tower need to look outside their windows and UPDATE the ATIS.
A few times my observation and the METAR observation are way better than the ATIS weather, but funny old thing we can’t do circuits because they say BKN 1000’ and Vis 3000 m.....
I have no idea what they are up to......?

So if you are reading this MB tower people, what are you doing?
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 00:10
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Originally Posted by ACMS View Post
In my experience MB tower need to look outside their windows and UPDATE the ATIS. ...
I have no idea what they are up to......?
Give them a call next time and ask?
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 01:56
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Originally Posted by BahDumbTish View Post
<snip> Special VFR should only be requested if SVFR is required. If the ATIS says "expect instrument approach" and you are VFR and able to proceed in VMC, all you are doing by requesting Special VFR is possibly delaying your own flight by requiring unnecessary separation.
​​​
If itís EIA you have no option but to expect to request SVFR (usually). You donít get the option to come in normally.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 05:15
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I understood SVFR was only when conditions were non VMC. AIP ENR1.2

Please can someone post the reference about SVFR in VMC,

In this case it is VMC, for a VFR flight this means when you reach the inbound point, you may not be able to get a clearance into the zone if an IFR approach is .happenning or imminent. At Jandakot plenty of VFR flying still goes in when they say EIA, but I have never heard them say it in VMC.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 06:02
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop View Post
I understood SVFR was only when conditions were non VMC. AIP ENR1.2

Please can someone post the reference about SVFR in VMC,

In this case it is VMC, for a VFR flight this means when you reach the inbound point, you may not be able to get a clearance into the zone if an IFR approach is .happenning or imminent. At Jandakot plenty of VFR flying still goes in when they say EIA, but I have never heard them say it in VMC.

As mentioned above, it may simply be a case of that the ATIS was slow to be updated.

That being said, EIP is a good way to keep aircraft out of the zone without having to individually deny them a clearance at the approach points. Inbound aircraft for recreation and training purposes will simply turn around or go somewhere else when they hear EIP, or they have noticed and crap weather is inbound and are waiting for that.

Iíve seen plenty of times where it has remained as EIP for some time after bad weather because they have a backlog of aircraft to get out and if they open it up, a dozen aircraft will be requesting circuits. Iíve seen 10 aircraft lined up to get out whilst circuits have started up after some fog has cleared and I had to wait nearly 30 minutes.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 06:39
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MATS 3.1.1.5

"When more than one instrument approach is in general use, EXPECT INSTRUMENT APPROACH may be recorded."

No where does that imply you need to request SVFR, or that you can't ask for a visual approach. If the weather is suitable for a visual approach and traffic allows, there is no reason why you wouldn't be cleared for it either.


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Old 10th Aug 2020, 07:06
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Originally Posted by junior.VH-LFA View Post
MATS 3.1.1.5

"When more than one instrument approach is in general use, EXPECT INSTRUMENT APPROACH may be recorded."

No where does that imply you need to request SVFR, or that you can't ask for a visual approach. If the weather is suitable for a visual approach and traffic allows, there is no reason why you wouldn't be cleared for it either.

In this case it is VMC, for a VFR flight this means when you reach the inbound point, you may not be able to get a clearance into the zone if an IFR approach is happening or imminent
It is explained above in the quote...

If youíre special VFR, you are effectively treated as IFR in that you may be the only one in the zone, but youíre not using instruments.

You donít have to know itís SVFR, you will be TOLD you need to request SVFR because visibility is below 5,000 metres but above 1,600
metres.

Itís a very grey area really, as by entering when EIP is active as a VFR, the weather is likely to be sub-standard (less than 5,000 metres vis and above 1,600 metres vis) and things can go pear-shaped very quickly if youíre not on the ball.

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com...-June-2014.pdf
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 07:28
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Don't know 'bout over in Oz but this side of the ditch the cloud base must be higher than 1000 feet above the initial commencement altitude of the appropriate instrument approach before a visual approach can be advertised. If the initial commencement altitude is say 3000 feet then the cloud base needs to be above 4000 feet. Perhaps something similar applied in this case?
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 07:46
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post
It is explained above in the quote...

If you’re special VFR, you are effectively treated as IFR in that you may be the only one in the zone, but you’re not using instruments.

You don’t have to know it’s SVFR, you will be TOLD you need to request SVFR because visibility is below 5,000 metres but above 1,600
metres.

It’s a very grey area really, as by entering when EIP is active as a VFR, the weather is likely to be sub-standard (less than 5,000 metres vis and above 1,600 metres vis) and things can go pear-shaped very quickly if you’re not on the ball.

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com...-June-2014.pdf
I agree, and our school have a policy of no VFR flights into the training area when EIA is on the ATIS for that reason, I don't want them stuck out there with a front approaching and an IFR appraoach is happenning..

But this conversation is about VMC.

SVFR isn't a set of weather conditions, it is a type of clearance.

SVFR has to be requested by the pilot, ATC will not tell you to ask for it!

Nice pun on the grey area, but I think it is perfectly clear

Last edited by Clare Prop; 10th Aug 2020 at 08:04.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 07:48
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IFR and VFR aren't separated in D only given traffic so there is no reason to deny a VFR if in VMC with EIA on the ATIS. SVFR on the other hand (which is issued on pilot request) is separated so that is where you may be denied entry. Workload is certainly a reason you may be denied.

The EIA (at least at the 2 class D aerodromes I have worked at) is related to the MSA/LSALT for the IFR to be visual for a visual approach. I don't know MB but if the MSA is above 3000' that could be why there was EIA on the ATIS.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 08:07
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Originally Posted by Awol57 View Post
IFR and VFR aren't separated in D only given traffic so there is no reason to deny a VFR if in VMC with EIA on the ATIS. SVFR on the other hand (which is issued on pilot request) is separated so that is where you may be denied entry. Workload is certainly a reason you may be denied.

The EIA (at least at the 2 class D aerodromes I have worked at) is related to the MSA/LSALT for the IFR to be visual for a visual approach. I don't know MB but if the MSA is above 3000' that could be why there was EIA on the ATIS.
Thanks AWOL. If we have a lowering cloud base here then it is worth asking to come in at a lower level rather than ask for SVFR, then you will get a "not above" clearance.

Also anyone who is out there in the mimima for SVFR should probably be flying IFR anyway or safely on the ground!
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 08:55
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SVFR has to be requested by the pilot, ATC will not tell you to ask for it!
Sort of.... if you don't ask for it, you will be advised that clearance is not available and that you will need to request SVFR.

It's not hard to work out, but a low time pilot could end up in some very serious trouble flying at 1,600 metres visibility. I've flown into YMMB in SVFR and the heavens opened up on downwind with no warning resulting in zero visibility, so I'm glad I was suitably equipped and experienced to deal with it. Not nice otherwise.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 12:56
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Originally Posted by Awol57 View Post

The EIA (at least at the 2 class D aerodromes I have worked at) is related to the MSA/LSALT for the IFR to be visual for a visual approach. I don't know MB but if the MSA is above 3000' that could be why there was EIA on the ATIS.
This.
If IFR need the approach to get below LSALT then EIA will be on the ATIS. Might be perfectly clear and overcast at 2500'.
In that case it has pretty well no effect on VFR aircraft. Not even close to any SVFR requirement.

If its overcast at 1200' or reduced vis different story.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 13:31
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop View Post
Also anyone who is out there in the mimima for SVFR should probably be flying IFR anyway or safely on the ground!
Not uncommon for me to request SVFR to get out of Moorabbin due a few low clouds then nil cloud and blue skies in Class G a few miles away.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 15:32
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Special VFR

By day, when VMC do not exist, the ATC unit responsible for a control zone may issue, at pilot request, a special VFR clearance for flight in the CTR, or in controlled airspace next to the CTR for the purpose of entering or leaving the CTR, providing
(AIP ENR 1.2):
  • the special VFR flight will not unduly delay an IFR flight
  • the flight can be conducted clear of cloud
  • the visibility is not less than
    • 1600 m for aeroplanes
    • 800 m for helicopters
    • for balloons, not less than 100 m below 500 ft AGL and 1600 m at and above 500 ft AGL
  • a helicopter is operated at such a speed that the pilot has adequate opportunity to observe any obstructions or other traffic in sufficient time to avoid collisions and
  • the flight can be conducted in accordance with the requirements of CAR 157 regarding low flying.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 16:13
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Is YMMB that much busier now than it was in the 70s and 80s? I don’t recall such Byzantine ATC complications in those days when there were a host of charter and freight operations running along with numerous busy flying schools.

Ahhh....the halcyon days of an inbound call and a base call and flying with your eyes and ears wide open seem to have gone.

A bygone era when ATC was razor sharp, helpful and possessed superhuman powers of SA.
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