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Bell ditching off Newcastle

Old 12th Sep 2019, 11:37
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LeadSled View Post
belly tank,
Contrary to popular lore (as opposed to law) Limiter Cat aircraft are NOT limited to 6 persons or pax.
Read the AC a little more carefully.
Tootle pip!!
Actually CAR 262AM states WHR ( warbirds and historical aircraft ) are limited to 6 persons on board, an application to carry more can be obtained. What would you call the UH1H ? I’d call it a warbird under CAO 104 and it was in the Limited category to which those regs refer to.

Last edited by belly tank; 12th Sep 2019 at 13:44.
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Old 12th Sep 2019, 21:59
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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It not just Williamtown, I have been sent out well over the water in a NVFR piston single for a departure from Maroochydore on a very dark black night.
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Old 12th Sep 2019, 22:13
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Super Cecil, was it to avoid that big tall Mountain just to the North of you?
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Old 12th Sep 2019, 23:07
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Runaway, was a fair while ago but I'm sure it was taking off to the south
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Old 12th Sep 2019, 23:57
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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About 10 years ago at the Gold Coast, I was made to hold over water for a decent amount of time for multiple Airbuses, in a piston single with no night rating and last light upon me. When I advised I had no night rating I was advised I needed to declare a PAN PAN if I needed to land and they would divert the jet traffic. As my pax was current on NVFR is was a no-brainer to hold.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 00:29
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KRviator View Post
Am I the only one thinking UVC may have violated the Willy CTR without clearance and that might go some ways to explaining his fairly rapid turn out to sea?

ADS-B Exchange has the last ADS-B plot at -32.804943, 152.043326, which appears to be the second-last one FR24 recorded, based on altitude, but it's closer to Williamtown. When you plug those coordinates, and those of the WLM TACAN into a few different Lat/Long distance calculators, you come up with 11nm, according to the US NOAA, or 19.66km / 10.6nm according to a couple of others. The CTR extends 12nm from the TACAN, so is it possible he feared a pineapple for busting their airspace?
Or....

Maybe R578B wasn’t active at the time and the aircraft flew at 3,000’ to the boundary of the Willytown C and orbited in the Anna Bay Area while requesting a clearance.

Just speculation.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 00:50
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by belly tank View Post
Actually CAR 262AM states WHR ( warbirds and historical aircraft ) are limited to 6 persons on board, an application to carry more can be obtained. What would you call the UH1H ? I’d call it a warbird under CAO 104 and it was in the Limited category to which those regs refer to.
belly tank,
Exactly, the 6 limit is not a limit, and has a very interesting history, that derives from the other "lore" non-limit that a PPL can only carry six. Strange as it may seem to you, I actually am quite familiar with the "law" in this area, having had some quite detailed involvement, since the days of the H&EM Permit to fly "system".
Tootle pip!!
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 01:37
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post

Or....

Maybe R578B wasn’t active at the time and the aircraft flew at 3,000’ to the boundary of the Willytown C and orbited in the Anna Bay Area while requesting a clearance.

Just speculation.
This is probably a good time to mention that R578A-G are only ever activated in conjunction with the Willy CTR and vice versa (ie no R578 = no CTR)
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 04:28
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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So those markings on the VTC of C from the surface to 5,000’ out to the 12nm arc and the E LL of 4,500 beyond that are meaningless? It’s all or nothing determined by the Romeo NOTAMS?

Or are you just speculating?

How many times have you transitted Willy airspace in an aircraft other than a military aircraft or commercial aircraft? In round numbers.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 10:27
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
So those markings on the VTC of C from the surface to 5,000’ out to the 12nm arc and the E LL of 4,500 beyond that are meaningless? It’s all or nothing determined by the Romeo NOTAMS?

Pretty much, the E LL applies outside Willy hours, and everything else is NOTAM dependent (including CTR)
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 10:34
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Righto. So if there are no active NOTAMS, the Willly C marked on the charts is not active? I can fly over the top of Malfunction Junction at 500’?

I might give that a go, next weekend.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 10:37
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
Righto. So if there are no active NOTAMS, the Willly C marked on the charts is not active? I can fly over the top of Malfunction Junction at 500’?

I might give that a go, next weekend.
You sure can! Tip for young players the CTR appears in the YWLM series NOTAMS, R578 will appear as WMX.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 10:50
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Great! I’ll be taking some happy snaps of those Willytown flight lines from 500’ shortly. Thanks for the advice, Maggie!
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 11:31
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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All very strange!

The coastal lane operates at 500’. So not suitable for night VMC.

Why wouldn’t the clearance be overhead Willy?

Why would the aircraft be at Anna Bay?

How long before the facts come out?
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 12:15
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
All very strange!

The coastal lane operates at 500’. So not suitable for night VMC.

Why wouldn’t the clearance be overhead Willy?

Why would the aircraft be at Anna Bay?

How long before the facts come out?
Well said Dick.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 13:18
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
Great! I’ll be taking some happy snaps of those Willytown flight lines from 500’ shortly. Thanks for the advice, Maggie!
Sure...apart from the fact it’s open from 2000/1200 every single day...

Can you fly over it at 500ft AGL at night?

The fixation on airspace is astounding to be honest, compared to what seems just as likely to be a VFR Day helicopter operating in IMC at night with an iPad for an AI. But sure, you do you. Airspace stops being a factor when you run into trouble and use the magic words, LB of all people you know that.

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Old 13th Sep 2019, 14:05
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by junior.VH-LFA View Post
The fixation on airspace is astounding to be honest, compared to what seems just as likely to be a VFR Day helicopter operating in IMC at night with an iPad for an AI.

^^^ This, surely.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 22:20
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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It’s not a “fixation”. There was speculation earlier that the aircraft had busted controlled airspace. There was also speculation about whether a Romeo was or was not active at the time in a place where the aircraft was at 3,000’. And whilst it might be that the aircraft was gobbled up by extreme weather and disorientation, it might be that confusion with procedures and airspace was a factor. (My pure speculation.) Certainly I’m now confused by what Maggie is saying. If some people consider that there’s no point in discussing the airspace and procedures in this case, I (genuinely respectfully) take a different view.

I’m looking at a VTC and ERSA entry that says Willytown is C to 5,000’ out to the 12nm arc “ATS HR 2000 - 1200 DLY (1 HR earlier HDS). May be extended to support CLA MIL (Check CTR NOTAM).”

The Class C to 5,000’ is NOT a ROMEO.

My question was about ROMEOS being active or inactive.

If I fly coastal up to Merewether now at 500’ coastal - that is BELOW the lower level of Romeos 578C and 578D - then track overhead Willytown at 500’, I’m not busting any Romeo. I’m busting Class C airspace. Or have I got that wrong?

If I’m not wrong, it follows that the ROMEOS being active or inactive does NOT determine whether Willy Class C is active or inactive.

It may well be that the CTR NOTAMS and the ROMEO NOTAMS are issued concurrently for concurrent times, but that does have to be the case and, more importantly, it is not always the case. It might be the recent experience of a few people, but that does not make it universally true.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 22:36
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
All very strange!

The coastal lane operates at 500’. So not suitable for night VMC.
And it would appear that UVC wasn't properly kitted for night VFR either - apparently no ADF, VOR or GNSS.

Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
Why wouldn’t the clearance be overhead Willy?

Why would the aircraft be at Anna Bay?
As someone else has pointed out UVC's fuel situation probably wasn't all that flash. Coffs to Bankstown with the required reserve would have been a stretch (if not impossible) in decent weather. One might entertain the possibility that the plan (or a change of plans) was to refuel at Williamtown. 30 would have been active. You've flown rotary, Dick, how would you have set up for 30 coming down from the north (probably from overhead Taree)?

Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
How long before the facts come out?
23 days, when the preliminary is published.

​​​​​​

Last edited by MickG0105; 14th Sep 2019 at 01:07. Reason: Tidy up formatting
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 22:48
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post


It may well be that the CTR NOTAMS and the ROMEO NOTAMS are issued concurrently for concurrent times, but that does have to be the case and, more importantly, it is not always the case.
Just so we can move on from this issue I’ll deliver this to you in no uncertain terms. Between 0600-2200 local, 7 days a week, 365 days a year (even if theres 0 military acft planned) the CTR and R578 series are always active concurrently. Most of the other military airspaces where Class C services are provided thru the use of Romeo airspace such as Richmond, Amberley, Pearce etc function in a similar way but can vary airspace hours fairly easily as they don’t have to be there for RPT.

Willy approaches phone number is in ERSA, they’re probably bored on the weekend and will happily take any queries should you choose to verify

Last edited by Maggie Island; 13th Sep 2019 at 23:07.
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