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GA booming in the USA

Old 25th Jul 2019, 05:01
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for the replies.
The scenario I’m imagining is one where the Dr / specialist owns an aircraft (but is not a pilot).
They of course pick up all the costs for running the aircraft, but they engage a CPL to fly them to their country appointments a couple of times a month.
The Dr pays the CPL for their time.
In that situation it would strike me as very bizarre indeed if CASA came along and said it needs to be done under an AOC.
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Old 25th Jul 2019, 05:17
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rcoight View Post
Thanks for the replies.
The scenario I’m imagining is one where the Dr / specialist owns an aircraft (but is not a pilot).
They of course pick up all the costs for running the aircraft, but they engage a CPL to fly them to their country appointments a couple of times a month.
The Dr pays the CPL for their time.
In that situation it would strike me as very bizarre indeed if CASA came along and said it needs to be done under an AOC.
There seems to be at least one bizarre employed at each CAsA office, however it seems mandatory to be bizarre if you intend to be part of the CAsA Legal Team.

In most cases and places in Australia this would be classed as a private operation and be no issue - however certain individuals in CAsA may see it differently. It is then correct interpretation is held by the Judge, Jury and Executioner with significant resources (and if they lose a grudge).
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Old 25th Jul 2019, 05:24
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Speaking of GA booming in the US.

The likes of Mike Patey, Trent Palmer, Steve Kinevo, Corey Robin and Australian Stefan Drury.

Making videos for YouTube, promoting them with Instagram and Facebook and receiving revenue from YouTube/Google.

Commercial / AOC required or not?
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Old 25th Jul 2019, 05:49
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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The Medical Specialist would be carrying his/her "tools of trade" medical kit, therefore, according to CAsA this is 'commerce'...and all has to be done under an AOC and a Chief Pilot/CPL
Which costs you buckets of dosh, and gives them ultimate control over whether what you are doing can live or die.

Argue a point? Uh Oh, I dont like your 'attitude', I'll cancel yr AOC ! Thus financially you have yr throat cut.
Dont think its true.?.. I have been presented with exactly that in the past. Ive never found it, but there must be some reg somehere that defines 'attitude'... and I dont mean an aircraft in flight.
Just like the Electrician and his light bulbs and wires. Just like a Photographer and his camera. ' Commerce'
Its all BULLSH*T of course..but Control Freaks rule, OK ?
And if you have $2mil to spare you can challenge it in the Supreme Court, that CAsA is 'ultra vires' the Act.and .have NO head of power to regulate commerce.
Which is proof positive that We the GA people dont get the regulations we need or chose, but get this shite shoved down yr throat to choke off any endeavor you might be pursuing.
A free and democratic society?...Pull the other one.! We are in bureaucratic chains
Any 'rights' you may have are disenfranchised by the CAsA Policeman keen for a bash... ie the common law right to take a photograph from a public space, and be paid, and earn a living. Just dont use an aircraft.
I say again... there will be NO change until there is a Royal Commission or Judicial Inquiry into this bastard bureaucrazy.
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Old 25th Jul 2019, 06:25
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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You have demonstrated my point. Medical specialists and other professionals don’t have time to argue the toss with CASA. They Require precision. If the use of GA is a grey area for them, they won’t touch it. All it takes is one CASA guy saying “i’m not sure that’s legal” and the medicos won’t touch it. For example, my stepson is what you might call a “human spare parts salesman” - he supplies surgeons with all sorts of pins, joints, plates, etc. and is present in operating theatres. What if he is in the aircraft with his kit of parts for an operation, with the surgeon?

To put it another way, the level of aviation business risk is just too high in Australia - thanks to CASA

As for RPT definitions, there is a full discussion of what CASA thinks it might mean, sometimes, in the AAT decisions. One involved a few outback stations that decided it was a good idea to organize a fairly regular private milk run. CASA put a stop to that.
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Old 25th Jul 2019, 07:19
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Folks,
A quick and very rough count suggests that CASA is third behind tax and immigration matters in persons appealing to the AAT.
Given the tiny size of the aviation community, compared to the number of taxpayers, or potential new settlers with a visa problem, what does this tell us, even if the "third" is not accurate.
A database search certainly brings up a welter of AAT appeals against CASA.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 25th Jul 2019, 08:32
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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I find that the many examples given above just don't pass the common sense test. I'm fairly new to the whole AOC concept, so obviously no starting place other than "Who needs an AOC" makes for a better read:
https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/who-needs-aoc
where two aerial work activities could remotely touch upon the issue at hand:
  • Trade Operations
  • Carriage, for trading purposes, of goods owned by the pilot, owner or hirer of the aircraft on schedules that are not fixed and terminals
Now I find it a bit of a stretch to consider medicine to be a "trade operation". If flagging the carriage of her own stethoscope is such, then so would the fuel in the wings because she paid for it and it's helping her get to where she wants to be. Or her white coat for that matter. If the issue was to boil down to personal items, she could formally bequeath them to her husband who will gladly let her use them indefinitely.

And that's just one cooked up example. The tradie could argue the nuts and bolts belong to his company, not himself.
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Old 25th Jul 2019, 08:51
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Okihara View Post
I find that the many examples given above just don't pass the common sense test. I'm fairly new to the whole AOC concept, so obviously no starting place other than "Who needs an AOC" makes for a better read:
https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/who-needs-aoc
where two aerial work activities could remotely touch upon the issue at hand:
  • Trade Operations
  • Carriage, for trading purposes, of goods owned by the pilot, owner or hirer of the aircraft on schedules that are not fixed and terminals
Now I find it a bit of a stretch to consider medicine to be a "trade operation". If flagging the carriage of her own stethoscope is such, then so would the fuel in the wings because she paid for it and it's helping her get to where she wants to be. Or her white coat for that matter. If the issue was to boil down to personal items, she could formally bequeath them to her husband who will gladly let her use them indefinitely.

And that's just one cooked up example. The tradie could argue the nuts and bolts belong to his company, not himself.
We are talking CAsA not common DF - I do not like your attitude, you are grounded!

Very simply that is both fact and truth in a large number of cases.

I have been instructed by a "Team Leader" to do things against the regulations in recording matters to a lower extent - how can I beat this? I was not allowed to do it to the legal/higher level of recording information, but forced to do it illegally.

So I shut shop.
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Old 25th Jul 2019, 14:51
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Mere text?

Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
Not if the CAsA Inspectors says otherwise.

What you have supplied is mere text!

CAsA employee "fixed schedule" = RPT and give you a little note.

Your next move (while you have that little note given to you 16:30 Friday afternoon saying your grounded! Is, well up to you.

However correctly or incorrectly grounded - should you continue to fly, you are now clearly in breach of more Regulations.

So your next flight might be in a year or 3 - then you are a target, so expect many "random" visits.
That “mere text” is the law and if you think a CASA inspector is going to strain themselves by putting finger to keyboard before checking that the act might generate more work for themselves you best don the foil hat and take shelter from the chemtrails. Besides, there are a lot more “operations” sailing closer to the RPT wind that are getting away with it
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Old 25th Jul 2019, 17:31
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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okihara, the facts are apparently against you.
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Old 25th Jul 2019, 23:14
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flying-spike View Post


That “mere text” is the law and if you think a CASA inspector is going to strain themselves by putting finger to keyboard before checking that the act might generate more work for themselves you best don the foil hat and take shelter from the chemtrails. Besides, there are a lot more “operations” sailing closer to the RPT wind that are getting away with it
I will PM you their name and details of the case if you like - then call them and have it confirmed.

If verbal is not ok ask for it in writing, mine was sent via email.
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 04:35
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Flying Spike “getting away” with what? Trying to run an aviation business in the face of massive over regulation?

Exactly what is there to get away with? Do businesses in the U.S. or N.Z. also have to,”get away with it” too? Or are we talking, as I suspect, of some weird and restrictive regulation that Australia invented all on its own?
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 05:47
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.michaelwest.com.au/mayda...alian-airbase/
Virgin Australia may have misled all levels of Australian government and has made dubious public claims about the true identity of its shadowy Chinese partners in its secretive proposal to take control of the nation’s biggest military pilot school, at an RAAF training facility in Tamworth NSW.


Quote:
“General aviation flying in the United States is up substantially – mostly due to flight training of pilots hoping to go to the airlines. Right now airline hiring is up considerably and airline salaries are as well. It is a bonanza.”



Surely the "foreign owned business" horse bolted long ago in this country.
or is aviation different?
Ideally it would all be ozzy companies, but that sentiment applies to every industry and business.


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Old 26th Jul 2019, 09:20
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Flying Spike “getting away” with what? Trying to run an aviation business in the face of massive over regulation?

Exactly what is there to get away with? Do businesses in the U.S. or N.Z. also have to,”get away with it” too? Or are we talking, as I suspect, of some weird and restrictive regulation that Australia invented all on its own?
I have no idea (any more) what people "trying to run an aviation business" are up against - nor do I want to know. I left that world a long time ago and it was the best thing that ever happened to me, but

In the scenario I put forth, there is no way in the world that CASA could get away with prosecuting it as some kind of commercial enterprise that requires an AOC.
In that situation, no-one is "trying to run an aviation business".
The logical extension is that no aircraft owner can ever do anything after flying their own aircraft that might make them a bit of money.
What about an aircraft owner who flies to their rental property interstate to tidy it up or install a heater? What about an aircraft owner who flies somewhere to take up a short term contract and then flies home at the end of it? Do they need an AOC?

I very much doubt that CASA would or could try to prosecute in those or any number of other scenarios.

I think what we have here are a number of people who ARE trying to run an aviation business being tripped up by over-zealous CASA employees, which is an entirely different thing altogether, and I'm sure the complaints are also entirely justified. In some cases at least.
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 09:38
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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From a CAsA argument the flight is running to a schedule Airport 1 at 10 pm, Airport 2 12 pm and Airport 3 at 4 pm 3 days a month - so it is a RPT operation.]
Explain to me again about jet FIFO CHARTER from fixed bases in accordance with fixed schedules...
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 09:38
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rcoight View Post
I have no idea (any more) what people "trying to run an aviation business" are up against - nor do I want to know. I left that world a long time ago and it was the best thing that ever happened to me, but

In the scenario I put forth, there is no way in the world that CASA could get away with prosecuting it as some kind of commercial enterprise that requires an AOC.
In that situation, no-one is "trying to run an aviation business".
The logical extension is that no aircraft owner can ever do anything after flying their own aircraft that might make them a bit of money.
What about an aircraft owner who flies to their rental property interstate to tidy it up or install a heater? What about an aircraft owner who flies somewhere to take up a short term contract and then flies home at the end of it? Do they need an AOC?

I very much doubt that CASA would or could try to prosecute in those or any number of other scenarios.

I think what we have here are a number of people who ARE trying to run an aviation business being tripped up by over-zealous CASA employees, which is an entirely different thing altogether, and I'm sure the complaints are also entirely justified. In some cases at least.
My previous post to supply info, I also am happy to supply the same info to you.

Only deal is then you must publicly respond here, the truth you will uncover and name the CAsA person.
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 10:53
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
My previous post to supply info, I also am happy to supply the same info to you.

Only deal is then you must publicly respond here, the truth you will uncover and name the CAsA person.
Honestly, mate, I don’t care. It is of no actual interest to me other than curiosity.
I’ve been in that world in a previous life so I know what used to go on, and I’ve been on the wrong end of it.
I know that personal targeting of individuals / businesses has gone on in the bad old days. It’s disappointing to hear that it may still be going on.

However, that doesn’t change my view that in the particular - entirely theoretical - scenario I proposed the people doing that would have nothing to worry about.
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 11:30
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Oh theoretical you are 100% - but yes nothing has changed (for the better), the bad days are now looking like blue sky's.

You and 99+% of Australians do not know or do not care - but have opinions/beliefs and complain of things directly part of the problem that they do not care.

Very much like immigration and 457's or other.
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 13:15
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Tick All those boxes in CAR206 that I quoted then you are operating RPT. If you you don’t tick the boxes you are not operating RPT. I am a former CASA inspector and I can tell you that the first thing I would do when investigating a complaint (9 times out of 10 made by an RPT operator) I would check the suspect operation against the applicable regulation and not just rely on the allegation. The CASA inspectorate are so under resourced that you can’t afford to pursue a complaint that has insufficient evidence to support it. I am not saying that there aren’t dinosaur inspectors still out there that might try to bluff and bludgeon an operator but they are usually lazy bastards too and eventually discover the futility of pushing a false argument. ( I managed to weed out one or two during training)

Last edited by flying-spike; 26th Jul 2019 at 13:45.
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 13:52
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flying-spike View Post
Tick All those boxes in CAR206 that I quoted then you are operating RPT. If you you don’t tick the boxes you are not operating RPT. I am a former CASA inspector and I can tell you that the first thing I would do when investigating a complaint (9 times out of 10 made by an RPT operator) I would check the suspect operation against the applicable regulation and not just rely on the allegation. The CASA inspectorate are so under resourced that you can’t afford to pursue a complaint that has insufficient evidence to support it. I am not saying that there aren’t dinosaur inspectors still out there that might try to bluff and bludgeon an operator but they are usually lazy bastards too and eventually discover the futility of pushing a false argument. ( I managed to weed out one or two during training)
If you are from Brisbane, the QLD CAsA staff are far better than many in Australia.

They actually now look after several interstate/territory company's due complaints.
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