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Circle to land @ NZQN

Old 22nd Feb 2019, 14:56
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Circle to land @ NZQN

According to the regulation, we must go around if we lose visual contact with the runway during circling. However, when we circle to land at Queenstown, anyway we will lost visual contact with the airfield because of the terrain. How may we carry out the circling then?

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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 18:46
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ENR 1.5 4.23.9

just like everything else about Queenstown it has its own special case. It’s not actually a circling maneuver, it’s discontinuing the approach and continuing with visual reference ..anyhow, it doesn’t state you must have visual contact with the runway on a circling maneuver, just the runway environment. That’s loose enough to keep lawyers in pay for years if you ever had to argue it in court. I’ve flown the figure of eight a few times in my life and if you stretch your neck you can usually see some part of frankton most of the time
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 19:06
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Hamilton Island in Queensland is another. Circling off the RW32 VOR for RW14 you fly around the back of Dent Island. You lose sight of the runway but Dent island is considered ' a feature identifiable with the threshold of the runway' or words to that effect.
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Old 22nd Feb 2019, 20:01
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and now we have the reason why Qantas and Jetstar will only do a missed to 10k+ rather than doing the figure 8 circuit at 4k
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 03:45
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Originally Posted by mattyj View Post
ENR 1.5 4.23.9

just like everything else about Queenstown it has its own special case. It’s not actually a circling maneuver, it’s discontinuing the approach and continuing with visual reference ..anyhow, it doesn’t state you must have visual contact with the runway on a circling maneuver, just the runway environment. That’s loose enough to keep lawyers in pay for years if you ever had to argue it in court. I’ve flown the figure of eight a few times in my life and if you stretch your neck you can usually see some part of frankton most of the time
Thank you for your reply, mattyj. What confuse me is that it has circle to land minimum. According to the regulations, it should be IFR. We do 8 pattern only if the cloud is so low that we can not straight in from the valley. And if the 8 pattern is under VFR, then we can not keep enough distance to the cloud as VFR require to. If it is IFR circle to land, we can not see the runway during circling, we should go around then. How can we carry out this approach?
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 04:02
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Originally Posted by By George View Post
Hamilton Island in Queensland is another. Circling off the RW32 VOR for RW14 you fly around the back of Dent Island. You lose sight of the runway but Dent island is considered ' a feature identifiable with the threshold of the runway' or words to that effect.
Thank you George. Is their any airport reference or official documents that can approve us to divate from the regulation to continue approach if we can not see the runway during circling at those airports?
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 04:09
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Originally Posted by InZed View Post
And to make the matter even more confusing; if during a visual figure-8 circling at NZQN you receive a EGPWS 'pull up', Virgin Australia (and Boeing) allow you to disregard this warning, and continue the manoeuvre, while AirNZ is a compulsory go around. Confused as to what is the safest thing to do? I am.
Days ago, our cheif pilot was fired and grounded for 3 mo just because he didn’t go around after receive the “pull up” warning during circling at NZQN. So every one is getting scrupulous and sensitive to fly there.
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 04:35
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chx230, I don't live in unzud, I don't even know where QT is, but looking at the RNAV F and H, the "circling" minima is actually shown as a "visual circuit" minima. It is not visual circling in the AIP sense of the phrase. The vis minimum for this "circling" is 5km, which means that you can conduct it in VMC; you therefore do not need to keep the runway in sight while doing your wiffodil.
You may get tangled up with your AIP's definition of VMC (Class C? Class D?, Special VFR?, altitude?) WRT vertical distance from cloud, which may or may not upset the applecart, but to my eye it not a true "circling approach".
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 04:49
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs View Post
chx230, I don't live in unzud, I don't even know where QT is, but looking at the RNAV F and H, the "circling" minima is actually shown as a "visual circuit" minima. It is not visual circling in the AIP sense of the phrase. The vis minimum for this "circling" is 5km, which means that you can conduct it in VMC; you therefore do not need to keep the runway in sight while doing your wiffodil.
You may get tangled up with your AIP's definition of VMC (Class C? Class D?, Special VFR?, altitude?) WRT vertical distance from cloud, which may or may not upset the applecart, but to my eye it not a true "circling approach".
From my understanding. If it is VFR, then they should put the words like “Weather Minimum” or simply nothing instead of “Circle to Land” there. Like RJTT LDA approach. Since it is not a circling under IFR, we have no need to keep eyes on the runway. Actually it is very hard to find the runway at FAF. And they have another chart shows the land mark which can guide us to aline.

But NZQN is different. They put “circle to land” there. And during circling, we can not keep enough distance to the cloud as VFR require to. But as an IFR circling, we should go around if we can not see the runway. Confusing....



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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 05:03
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"Circle to land" is not mentioned anywhere on the RNAV F or H, they say "VISUAL CIRCUIT". This is NOT Visual Circling. ATC may well clear you Special VFR, or waive the vertical distance from cloud. Ask them.
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 06:56
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chx230, don’t get hung up on the phrase “circle to land”. The NZ AIP chart does not say “circle to land”, it says “visual circuit”. You may be looking at the Jeppesen chart which does say “circle to land” but Jeppesen just republish information in their own format and may unintentionally introduce minor differences from the source material.
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 07:20
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1.2 Significant Differences from ICAO Doc 8168 — PANS-OPS Non-Standard Approach Procedures
1.2.1 At a limited number of locations in New Zealand, the terrain or existing NAVAID infrastructure necessitated promulgation of instrument approach procedures which are primarily designed to enable the flight crew to establish the visual references necessary to continue on a visual approach, or to proceed to the aerodrome of landing under VFR, as applicable.
1.2.2 Although the minima for these approaches are annotated on AIP charts as “circling”, these approaches do not utilise the standard circling areas or standard circling manoeuvring. These approaches are distinguished from standard PANS-OPS circling approaches by a note below the landing minima box on the approach chart stating the intent.
These approaches are:
D O Great Barrier (NZGB): NDB A, RNAV (GNSS) B
O Queenstown (NZQN): VOR/DME B, VOR/DME C, RNAV (GNSS) F, RNAV (GNSS) G
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 07:40
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Originally Posted by AerocatS2A View Post
1.2 Significant Differences from ICAO Doc 8168 — PANS-OPS Non-Standard Approach Procedures
1.2.1 At a limited number of locations in New Zealand, the terrain or existing NAVAID infrastructure necessitated promulgation of instrument approach procedures which are primarily designed to enable the flight crew to establish the visual references necessary to continue on a visual approach, or to proceed to the aerodrome of landing under VFR, as applicable.
1.2.2 Although the minima for these approaches are annotated on AIP charts as “circling”, these approaches do not utilise the standard circling areas or standard circling manoeuvring. These approaches are distinguished from standard PANS-OPS circling approaches by a note below the landing minima box on the approach chart stating the intent.
These approaches are:
D O Great Barrier (NZGB): NDB A, RNAV (GNSS) B
O Queenstown (NZQN): VOR/DME B, VOR/DME C, RNAV (GNSS) F, RNAV (GNSS) G
Thank you so much! That is exactly what I need! Could you please tell me where did you find it?
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 08:07
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Originally Posted by chx230 View Post


Thank you George. Is their any airport reference or official documents that can approve us to divate from the regulation to continue approach if we can not see the runway during circling at those airports?
Try the reference on the approach plate here http://aip.net.nz/pdf/NZQN_45.3_45.4.pdf which guides you to here http://aip.net.nz/pdf/NZQN_51.3.pdf

Last edited by Lindstrim; 23rd Feb 2019 at 08:08. Reason: Wrong second link
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 10:24
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Originally Posted by chx230 View Post


Thank you so much! That is exactly what I need! Could you please tell me where did you find it?

https://www.caa.govt.nz/rules/civil-aviation-rules/

Part 91.


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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 18:14
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Originally Posted by AerocatS2A View Post
Still can not find it.Could you please tell me in which chapter and section?thanks!
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Old 23rd Feb 2019, 19:10
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http://www.aip.net.nz/pdf/ENR_1.5.pdf

Enroute 1.5, first page.
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 06:00
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Originally Posted by AerocatS2A View Post
http://www.aip.net.nz/pdf/ENR_1.5.pdf

Enroute 1.5, first page.
Thank you so much!!!!
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Old 25th Feb 2019, 07:06
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Originally Posted by chx230 View Post

Thank you so much!!!!
No problem. Sorry about the first link, I'd looked for it there and then forgotten that I found it somewhere else.
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