The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

RA Instructor rating before CPL?

Old 2nd Feb 2019, 07:02
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
RA Instructor rating before CPL?

G'day,

I'm a prospective flight student currently sussing out training options. A flight school at a small uncontrolled airstrip near me put me onto a training pathway that I haven't encountered elsewhere and I want to see if anyone here has any thoughts about it.

They said I can do this progression: RPC -> RPL -> PPL -> RA Instructor. So I could start doing RA Instructing as soon as I hit the required PIC hours, which I believe is 100. The idea being to get working earlier and be able to claim all further training (CPL, MEIR, ATPL etc) as tax deductions. The RA Instructor rating could be converted to GA after finishing my CPL. They say they've only recently started doing things this way but have an instructor who did it to prove it works.

Anyone heard of this? Does it sound feasible? My main concern is that I wouldn't actually be able to find instructing work with such low hours, or that I would not be ready to be able to perform the job well when so inexperienced.

Cheers.
phlegm is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 07:55
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oz
Posts: 533
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The idea being to get working earlier and be able to claim all further training (CPL, MEIR, ATPL etc) as tax deductions.
Have a read of this - https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/T...8/?=redirected
Then talk to a taxation specialist rather than believe what a flying school tells you.
topdrop is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 08:01
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: X
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by phlegm View Post
G'day,

The idea being to get working earlier and be able to claim all further training (CPL, MEIR, ATPL etc) as tax deductions. The RA Instructor rating could be converted to GA after finishing my CPL.
I'd check with the tax office first if I were you. I don't think it can be done. And I know the rules have changed recently with flight instructing, but I don't think you can get paid employment as a pilot with only a PPL. You need to have a CPL.
XanaduX is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 08:07
  #4 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks for the link.

The guy I spoke to who trained this way said he went to the ATO and after a lengthy explanation of the difference between RA and GA got the approval to claim back his further training as tax deductions, and did so. Grain of salt, of course, but he seemed to have too much information on this topic to be making it up.

I don't want to give the impression that I'm only interested in this pathway because of the potential tax breaks, though. Genuinely curious if people think this would make me a safer and more knowledgeable pilot that doing a more conventional order of licenses and ratings.
phlegm is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 08:19
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Sydney
Posts: 404
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
NB, not a reflection on you the original poster but questions on the robustness of the current system.

You can get an RA instructor rating with 100hrs TT and work as an instructor?

And as a RAinstructor you can then train pilots for an RPC (basically equivalent to the GA RPL other than it is only for RA registered aircraft)?

I assume as an RPC holder with an instructor rating you can get nav privileges and control airspace privileges and then can endorse RA pilots for these?

If so basically you can train RA pilots to have similar rights as a PPL (obviously restricted to RA aircraft though) as an instructor with a little over 100hrs total time?

And those RPC students can turn up with their RPC at a GA school and get that converted to a RPL with a check out on a VH aircraft?

Meaning if they have nav and controlled airspace privileges on their RPL, they have a defacto PPL?

Meanwhile, a GA school must employ instructors who would have at least a minimum 200 hrs TT (if they do an integrated 150 hr CPL + FIR rating, otherwise 250hrs min). These instructors can train someone for a PPL (but cannot sent students solo and must be directly supervised by grade 1 instructors) and the school must be audited by CASA and have an AOC that specifies in detail the training standards, recording of students, operating procedures, safety systems, maintenance systems etc.

I dunno but this seems weird to me. How can GA schools can compete - should we pressuring CASA to allow 100hr instructors in GA? Aren't they effectively allowing this by letting RA do this?

NB Meaning no reflection on RAAus instructors - there are really good RAAus instructors who train students to a high standard but if they have instructors with 100hrs TT churning out new pilots that can then do a quick conversion to a PPL from this training - is that right or have I got the wrong end of the sav?

Can GA schools compete against this? What standard of pilots would we be producing? I just think 100hrs is a pretty green pilot, may have great potential and become be a fantastic one down the track but 100hrs is very green to start training other pilots.

A junior G3 GA instructor that requires at least double that TT is usually still a work in progress (again no reflection on G3s - you have to start somewhere and may potentially be fantastic instructors but there is a reason they must be supervised - they still need to build experience and require oversight).

I am sure someone can explain where the checks and balances are in this (eg with how many hours in a RAAus instructor course? What restrictions are there on RAAus junior instructors?)

Am I being overly worried? What do thers think?
jonkster is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 10:11
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 422
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Jonkster, a RPC holder cannot get a controlled airspace endorsement. The RPC holder must hold at least a current RPL with airspace endorsement to be able to fly into controlled airspace. Being a RAAus instructor with cross country endorsement also does not entitle you to go into controlled airspace. There are some limited exceptions to this for schools operating out of a class D aerodrome.
Cloudee is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 14:37
  #7 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I don't have the knowledge to answer most of your questions accurately, but according to the RAA Ops Manual it's 100 PIC, not TT, so I suspect the total time wouldn't be that far off GA requirements anyway. Also several limitations, like no being able to approve a student for solo flight.

As for endorsements the only ones explicitly mentioned in the manual are Radio Operator, Cross Country, Passenger Carrying and Human Factors.
phlegm is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 20:31
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by XanaduX View Post
I'd check with the tax office first if I were you. I don't think it can be done. And I know the rules have changed recently with flight instructing, but I don't think you can get paid employment as a pilot with only a PPL. You need to have a CPL.
Of course you can... a PPL with an RA-Aus instructor rating can indeed earn an income.

The ATO definition makes it sound legitimate if the school you’re in is also a CPL / Instructor provider and provides training. You’re upskilling for the purposes of earning a higher income. I can see why it has been suggested that it can be done.


Squawk7700 is online now  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 20:47
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by phlegm View Post
So I could start doing RA Instructing as soon as I hit the required PIC hours, which I believe is 100. The idea being to get working earlier and be able to claim all further training (CPL, MEIR, ATPL etc) as tax deductions.
100 hours PIC so why wouldn't you have a CPL by then, do the Gr3 FIR instead of the RAA instructor course and off you go?

Last edited by djpil; 3rd Feb 2019 at 04:57.
djpil is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 22:43
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Slightly off topic: do RAAus abinitio hours count towards G2 abinitio hour requirements?
Styx75 is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2019, 04:58
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Styx75 View Post
Slightly off topic: do RAAus abinitio hours count towards G2 abinitio hour requirements?
nope - from CASA at a recent instructor seminar
djpil is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2019, 05:57
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 422
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by djpil View Post
nope - from CASA at a recent instructor seminar
BUT that RAAus instructor can train a RAAus student who can then get a RPL with no further training or exams. And that RAAus student can count those hours towards his PPL and CPL. No logic there from CASA.
Cloudee is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2019, 09:01
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Cloudee View Post

BUT that RAAus instructor can train a RAAus student who can then get a RPL with no further training or exams. And that RAAus student can count those hours towards his PPL and CPL. No logic there from CASA.
I'd never thought of it that way... intriguing!
Squawk7700 is online now  
Old 3rd Feb 2019, 10:55
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The relevant text seems to be: “flight time conducting initial fight training in an aircraft of the specifed category.” I can’t see how that excludes RAA but CASA often tells me I am wrong about things.
djpil is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2019, 22:52
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The most junior-burger of RAAus Instructors will likely have no less than 150hrs TT (minimum 20hrs dual to get RPC + 100hrs PIC + 20hr dual instructor training +/- additional hours for PAX, Cross-country, BFRs, and other endorsements along the way). Not much, agreed - but on par with CASA G3 instructors given that the RAAus Syllabus is limited to Class G ops only.
Kranz is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2019, 23:36
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brisbane
Age: 41
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Cloudee View Post

BUT that RAAus instructor can train a RAAus student who can then get a RPL with no further training or exams. And that RAAus student can count those hours towards his PPL and CPL. No logic there from CASA.
You might be able to send in the paperwork to casa and get an RPL on paper, but it wont be endorsed so you cant use it until you get a flight school to sign you off to say you have met the RPL standards. This will take several hours of training with a GA school.
ViPER_81 is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2019, 01:04
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 422
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ViPER_81 View Post
You might be able to send in the paperwork to casa and get an RPL on paper, but it wont be endorsed so you cant use it until you get a flight school to sign you off to say you have met the RPL standards. This will take several hours of training with a GA school.
No endorsement needed. What you do need is a flight review in a GA aircraft to be able to use the RPL. Some schools have RAAus and GA registered versions of the same aircraft, eg SportStar or Foxbat which means the flight review should just be the one flight in the GA version.

In this case, to fly the same aircraft in the same airspace with a different registration, you need to jump through a lot of hoops, get a medical and an ASIC or AVID and another flight review. Not a lot of common sense there.
Cloudee is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2019, 02:02
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brisbane
Age: 41
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Cloudee View Post
No endorsement needed. What you do need is a flight review in a GA aircraft to be able to use the RPL. Some schools have RAAus and GA registered versions of the same aircraft, eg SportStar or Foxbat which means the flight review should just be the one flight in the GA version.

In this case, to fly the same aircraft in the same airspace with a different registration, you need to jump through a lot of hoops, get a medical and an ASIC or AVID and another flight review. Not a lot of common sense there.
I think it varies a lot school to school. If you are going to be flying the same plane type in the same class G airspace, then sure a simple flight review will suffice. Not sure what the point of doing this would be apart from wanting to log hours in a VH reg plane. If you want to move up to say a 172 from a foxbat and fly in controlled airspace/controlled aerodromes then any reputable flight school would require a fair amount of training to sign you off on this.
ViPER_81 is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2019, 04:23
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 422
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ViPER_81 View Post
I think it varies a lot school to school. If you are going to be flying the same plane type in the same class G airspace, then sure a simple flight review will suffice. Not sure what the point of doing this would be apart from wanting to log hours in a VH reg plane. If you want to move up to say a 172 from a foxbat and fly in controlled airspace/controlled aerodromes then any reputable flight school would require a fair amount of training to sign you off on this.
Agree, and wanting to log VH instead of RAAus is a reason a few people have for changing. There are still employers out there who would favour VH hours over RAAus aircraft hours, even if it’s the same type. Must be the different physics required to fly a VH registered aircraft!
Cloudee is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2019, 04:57
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ViPER_81 View Post
If you want to move up to say a 172 from a foxbat and fly in controlled airspace/controlled aerodromes then any reputable flight school would require a fair amount of training to sign you off on this.
I went direct from Raaus to PPL in 3.5 hours including CTA (+ plus the time for the PPL flight test into CTA).
In the end, it’s all about how much the school wants to rip you off... or not.
Squawk7700 is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.