Islander down at Melaleuca?
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its sad to read these pages after such a sad event, such an event can bring out the worst in people:-( One can only hope that we all as pilots can learn something from this girls early demise. Very few pilots wake up one morning & say I'm going to crash/die (some have sadly) so perhaps when the facts are in this thread may take a more civilized approach? We lost an aviator, someone is in mourning:-(
My weather cameras located on the flight path recorded conditions suitable for VFR and likely VFR over the top.
There are also high resolution cameras located at the destination which would have showed conditions at the time for the pilot.
https://www.paravion.com.au/melaleuca-webcam/
Had the pilot been VFR over the top and wanting to get down, then that would be a concern.
Guest
Posts: n/a
It's very sad to hear and read the tragic accident, involving the young female pilot, resulting in a loss of life.
When I read all details, of the news article, i immediately thought of another accident, in 2004, an aero commander accident, from Hobart to Devonport( details are on internet),which was also flown by a female during an IFR flight in Tasmania (also only occupant on board).
It's very sad to hear the accident resulted in a loss of life.
Reading the details of the 2004 accident, the pilot had 40 hours on type and 371 total time.
I don't know if some type of Bermuda triangle appears in that part of the world, every decade or so, but I just WONDER, WHY, those accidents are happening, involving female pilots and being the sole occupant on board, covering such short trips.
I'm quite aware the terrain, environment, conditions, down there, can be SO CHALLENGING.
When I read all details, of the news article, i immediately thought of another accident, in 2004, an aero commander accident, from Hobart to Devonport( details are on internet),which was also flown by a female during an IFR flight in Tasmania (also only occupant on board).
It's very sad to hear the accident resulted in a loss of life.
Reading the details of the 2004 accident, the pilot had 40 hours on type and 371 total time.
I don't know if some type of Bermuda triangle appears in that part of the world, every decade or so, but I just WONDER, WHY, those accidents are happening, involving female pilots and being the sole occupant on board, covering such short trips.
I'm quite aware the terrain, environment, conditions, down there, can be SO CHALLENGING.
To be clear, there is NO SELF REGULATION in Australian aviation, whether you like it or not, there is one "regulator", CASA.
What kind of a job CASA does in risk minimisation, how it enforces the regulations, is a matter of widely varying opinion.
It is true that, in some sports and recreational areas, administration of the regulations (including any exemptions) is conducted by related associations, such as the GFA, RAOz., ABF, HGFA etc. None of these or like bodies have regulation making powers, even of some of their management at times behave like they think they do have such power.
"Administration of the regulations" is not "regulation".
Tootle pip!!
PS: The further clarify, I recommend Sir Humphrey's discourse on the difference between "The Administration of Policy" and the "Policy of Administration".
Sadly the current CPL training syllabus - Part 6111 thingo does even touch mountain flying for the VFR pilot. Our beloved cousins across the ditch have a fair idea together with a few old PNG bush pilots,
Mountain waves and being able to read the cloud formation in relation to where not to fly is an aquired skill. No one in Australia taught me this, I was self taught with the help of a few old hands, Tasmania and the Southern Alps have similar conditions under certain conditions. Anyone who has flown regularly into Tekin or Oksapimin will know what I’m talking about.
Mountain waves and being able to read the cloud formation in relation to where not to fly is an aquired skill. No one in Australia taught me this, I was self taught with the help of a few old hands, Tasmania and the Southern Alps have similar conditions under certain conditions. Anyone who has flown regularly into Tekin or Oksapimin will know what I’m talking about.
Ducky, yes mountain flying training would be a useful addition to training, though I don't believe it needs to be within the basic CPL syllabus. Gaining a CPL is already costly enough.
Instead, require it to be part of induction and recurrent training when employed with a charter or air transport AOC. As the operator would be the main beneficiary, this would be the more fair approach. Charter company websites often lay claim that they can fly anywhere, any time, so that would include Tassie and PNG and other mountainous areas.
For those who do not wish to be burdened with this, CASA could endorse the AOC with ‘valid for flat earth operations only’ (children, I am kidding, but many claims to expertise and high standards on certain websites are misleading).
I can already hear the squeals of ‘over regulation’
For the record, I don’t want to see more regulations; fewer but pertinent regulations is the way to go.
Seagull, two pilots who happened to be female and flying alone is irrelevant. The only relevant factors in common with these two accidents appear to be a lack of experience and training combined with flying geriatric low performance aircraft over rugged terrain.
It has nothing to do with gender. Don’t go there!
Instead, require it to be part of induction and recurrent training when employed with a charter or air transport AOC. As the operator would be the main beneficiary, this would be the more fair approach. Charter company websites often lay claim that they can fly anywhere, any time, so that would include Tassie and PNG and other mountainous areas.
For those who do not wish to be burdened with this, CASA could endorse the AOC with ‘valid for flat earth operations only’ (children, I am kidding, but many claims to expertise and high standards on certain websites are misleading).
I can already hear the squeals of ‘over regulation’
For the record, I don’t want to see more regulations; fewer but pertinent regulations is the way to go.
Seagull, two pilots who happened to be female and flying alone is irrelevant. The only relevant factors in common with these two accidents appear to be a lack of experience and training combined with flying geriatric low performance aircraft over rugged terrain.
It has nothing to do with gender. Don’t go there!
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 12th Dec 2018 at 22:46.
The Australian Government believes in small business"
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: South of the Equator
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its sad to read these pages after such a sad event, such an event can bring out the worst in people:-( One can only hope that we all as pilots can learn something from this girls early demise. Very few pilots wake up one morning & say I'm going to crash/die (some have sadly) so perhaps when the facts are in this thread may take a more civilized approach? We lost an aviator, someone is in mourning:-(
When I read all details, of the news article, i immediately thought of another accident, in 2004, an aero commander accident, from Hobart to Devonport( details are on internet),which was also flown by a female during an IFR flight in Tasmania (also only occupant on board).
It's very sad to hear the accident resulted in a loss of life.
Reading the details of the 2004 accident, the pilot had 40 hours on type and 371 total time.
.
It's very sad to hear the accident resulted in a loss of life.
Reading the details of the 2004 accident, the pilot had 40 hours on type and 371 total time.
.
I would be very wary of equating the two accidents, and there is considerable doubt as to the veracity of the "official" accident report on the Aero Commander.
The Aero Commander was a structural failure, both wings failed in symmetrical DOWNWARD bending just outboard of the engine nacelles. Those of you who know anything about the aerodynamic and structural design and the record of the type will understand the significance.
Without going into detail, there is a very strong presumption, from independent review of the accident, that the outcome was beyond the control of the pilot, and not as per the ATSB report.
Put another way, the experience and competence of the Aero Commander pilot was not a contributory factor to the accident.
Unless you have "been there, done that", you are unlikely to appreciate how fast the Wx changes in that part of the world, and how bad the turbulence can be, even in VMC, despite only moderate winds being forecast.
Tootle pip!!
Please show some respect for a young pilot whose last moments don't bear thinking about. RIP.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Could it be that the gender of the pilot is actually irrelevant or are you saying we girlies aren't up to the job of flying in challenging conditions, especially not on our own? I hope not because that is what it sounds like.
Please show some respect for a young pilot whose last moments don't bear thinking about. RIP.
Please show some respect for a young pilot whose last moments don't bear thinking about. RIP.
I'm sure you are quite aware, that woman are excellent aviators, in all operations of aviation.
I was commenting, WHY this and the OTHER accident happened, the reasons have been explained to me, by various experts, in their ways.
I never said or indicated, what you have wrote above!
That's your interpretation and things can get interpreted, in many different ways, by all types of people.
Well said CP . . . . (seagulls, as anyone knows who has observed their habits, are great scavengers. . . . and naturally without a shred of decency as to whom they snatch their next morsel from . .. or go into the deafening flock cacophony of screeching over it . . hope that is not a bridge too far folks. . .. or too greater a draw on the long bow.)
Love ya work Fantome!
One day we will have to swap Heron stories, but in the interest of staying on thread, not here.
As for chicks flying, some of the macho males here would not like to know that in my day job I see a very high standard set by the 'girlies' (if Clare will allow me to use her descriptor).
The young ones in particular study hard, learn quickly and fly nicely.
The worst that I see are high time blokes (typically 10,000 hour plus) who have had too many years in GA, missed out on airlines, and are now trying to cash in on current opportunities by moving to advanced equipment. Too often it is beyond their capabilities, or they expect it to be a walk in the park. Not all have problems, of course, but enough to tell me that standards in GA must be pretty ordinary for these characters to have consistently passed their IPCs.
One day we will have to swap Heron stories, but in the interest of staying on thread, not here.
As for chicks flying, some of the macho males here would not like to know that in my day job I see a very high standard set by the 'girlies' (if Clare will allow me to use her descriptor).
The young ones in particular study hard, learn quickly and fly nicely.
The worst that I see are high time blokes (typically 10,000 hour plus) who have had too many years in GA, missed out on airlines, and are now trying to cash in on current opportunities by moving to advanced equipment. Too often it is beyond their capabilities, or they expect it to be a walk in the park. Not all have problems, of course, but enough to tell me that standards in GA must be pretty ordinary for these characters to have consistently passed their IPCs.
Yep .. . the odour of patronisation is there alright. (Might suggest "put a sock in it" . . . but it would be one pretty putrid , if it was chucked at the wall, it would probably hang there). segue again . . . .. the late Harry Purvis used to do C & T for the old Connellan Airways. He was interviewed once by the local radio station (of which I happen to still have a transcript).
HARRY : "Well I have flown with all sorts in a long civil and air force career, but recently here on one of the station runs out of Alice Springs I was startled to see my FO bring out her knitting. Sitting there plying the old needles, Christine did not turn a hair. When I told this to Eddie (Connellan) he was highly amused." (In 'History and Nostalgia' there is a recent request for Connellan stories sought for a forthcoming biography.)
HARRY : "Well I have flown with all sorts in a long civil and air force career, but recently here on one of the station runs out of Alice Springs I was startled to see my FO bring out her knitting. Sitting there plying the old needles, Christine did not turn a hair. When I told this to Eddie (Connellan) he was highly amused." (In 'History and Nostalgia' there is a recent request for Connellan stories sought for a forthcoming biography.)
Last edited by Fantome; 13th Dec 2018 at 06:52.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I have read, most of your posts Clare, when ever you have responded, to various topics, you are always level headed and people take notice, of your comments.
I knew quite well, someone, will pull me up, sooner or later, because, I have left my comments open for interpretation.
To be honest with everyone, i was so upset to hear and read, about the accident, that i really, had to ask the question, what happened?
I have seen the photos of the young lady, and i'm deeply saddened, to hear that the accident happened.
I remember the 2004 accident also, i was also very saddened to hear that situation.
I really hope, that, these type of accidents, never happen, to any pilot again.
The only reason, i drew parellel's, with both accidents, because, I wanted to know, what happened, and why these accidents are happening, in that part of Australia?
I can see for myself on the internet, the terrain is millions of years old, the weather closes in quickly.
In relation to the first accident, i have my own experiences, over a decade and a half ago, i was doing my Instrument Rating training run, on a cloudy and rainy day, the weather extending from Sydney to well past Dubbo.
I volunteered to fly with the instructor on a rainy and cloudy day, during the training run, we (myself and the instructor), were caught in a CELL, the cell, ROCKED, our aircraft, a DUCHESS, it was so bad, i really thought, it was over for me!
My instructor (gde 1 and charter pilot), KEPT up the normal CRUISE power setting, of, 23 inches MAP/2300 RPM, during the next 5 minutes, AND, we RELIGIOUSLY,
kept the ATTITUDE indicator level, i was ABOUT to reduce the POWER, in the CELL, the instructor said, NO!
YOU WILL STALL IT!
WE survived that encounter!
ON the ground, my instructor mentioned, if we crashed, the CORONER, would have concluded, THE WINGS HAD BROKEN OFF, DURING FLIGHT.
HE also mentioned, WE, were the only people OUT there, during the day.
What i'm saying, is, that single pilot IFR, CAN quickly, get, OUT OF CONTROL, in these light twin engine aircraft.
Airlines and Regional's, have 2 pilots and operate heavier aircraft, and fly well above the weather affected areas, to a certain degree.
Their operation is much safer, than single pilot IFR.
I knew quite well, someone, will pull me up, sooner or later, because, I have left my comments open for interpretation.
To be honest with everyone, i was so upset to hear and read, about the accident, that i really, had to ask the question, what happened?
I have seen the photos of the young lady, and i'm deeply saddened, to hear that the accident happened.
I remember the 2004 accident also, i was also very saddened to hear that situation.
I really hope, that, these type of accidents, never happen, to any pilot again.
The only reason, i drew parellel's, with both accidents, because, I wanted to know, what happened, and why these accidents are happening, in that part of Australia?
I can see for myself on the internet, the terrain is millions of years old, the weather closes in quickly.
In relation to the first accident, i have my own experiences, over a decade and a half ago, i was doing my Instrument Rating training run, on a cloudy and rainy day, the weather extending from Sydney to well past Dubbo.
I volunteered to fly with the instructor on a rainy and cloudy day, during the training run, we (myself and the instructor), were caught in a CELL, the cell, ROCKED, our aircraft, a DUCHESS, it was so bad, i really thought, it was over for me!
My instructor (gde 1 and charter pilot), KEPT up the normal CRUISE power setting, of, 23 inches MAP/2300 RPM, during the next 5 minutes, AND, we RELIGIOUSLY,
kept the ATTITUDE indicator level, i was ABOUT to reduce the POWER, in the CELL, the instructor said, NO!
YOU WILL STALL IT!
WE survived that encounter!
ON the ground, my instructor mentioned, if we crashed, the CORONER, would have concluded, THE WINGS HAD BROKEN OFF, DURING FLIGHT.
HE also mentioned, WE, were the only people OUT there, during the day.
What i'm saying, is, that single pilot IFR, CAN quickly, get, OUT OF CONTROL, in these light twin engine aircraft.
Airlines and Regional's, have 2 pilots and operate heavier aircraft, and fly well above the weather affected areas, to a certain degree.
Their operation is much safer, than single pilot IFR.
According to FlightAware this flight was planned at 4500 ft so I presume it was planned VFR. IFR lowest safe is 6,200 ft according to my flight planner. It appears the route flown was overland, close to direct. There are several peaks over 4000ft in the vicinity of a direct route so picking your way around these peaks with even moderate wind must be very challenging. I have no idea of the weather on this flight but I welll remember feeling the commercial pressure I put on myself early on in my flying in anything like marginal conditions. The trouble was that I just didn’t know enough to make informed judgements. Luckily a good boss and a bit of luck saw me through the early years. I’ll leave it to the investigation to comment on the circumstances and the decisions made in relation to this particular flight.