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New Fuel Rules! Land in a "field" what a joke!

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New Fuel Rules! Land in a "field" what a joke!

Old 18th Jun 2018, 09:18
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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Lookleft,

PS:
Nandi?? Don't know much about optimised routes, do you?? As I didn't work for PamAm/United, Nandi??
PS: I did apologise for my original remarks about Nandi
​​​​​​​I am certainly not apologising to you for anything, the likelihood of that is about the same as the ICAO Separation Assurance Standard probability collision happening.
I hope you enjoy your petty sniping, small things for small minds.
I think someone's small mind is certainly on display WJRH FIGJAM! I was trying to move the conversation on but you had to go and make it all about you again.

​​​​​​​Megan thanks for your description . Hopefully we can get back to normal programming.
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 11:34
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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The joys of unintended consequences...

I asked someone who knows how low fuel MAYDAYS on calculated less than 30 minutes FFR work in first world aviation nations. That person’s response:
Yes this is the case. So this creates the very real situation that when you arrive at Destination with let’s say 45min in the tank and you are told that you are required to take up the hold for 20min you, as required by the law, declare a MAYDAY and advise ATC that you will be landing with less than 30min in the tanks. ATC then acknowledge your MAYDAY and reorder the stack so that you are No 1 to land. Having now been vectored straight for the approach the Flight Management Computer tells you you are going to land with 44min of fuel so you advise ATC that you are no longer critical fuel and are retracting the MAYDAY.

Now obviously any ‘free thinking’ culture could deal with this, but certain other ‘remain within the box’ thinking cultures, having retracted the MAYDAY, you are no longer entitled to priority and so ATC, to vastly reduce their workload, will slot you back into the ‘flow’ they had spent their entire shift setting up and your MAYDAY was about to ruin. So back to the holding pattern you are sent… Repeat. [Lead Balloon comment: Note that this highlights the silliness of deeming something to be an emergency when it’s not.]

So for these ‘situations’ we were instructed that once a MAYDAY was declared it was not to be retracted. Seems simple enough, except for the fact that when a MAYDAY is declared all sorts of services (fire, ambulance, hospital…) are mobilised which are definitely not needed [Lead Balloon comment: Note that this highlights the silliness of deeming something to be an emergency when it’s not.]; which is why once the aircraft is vectored direct that the MAYDAY be retracted so the free thinking nations can justify why the[y] didn’t mobilise these services in the first place; because you declared a ‘Fuel MAYDAY’ and provided them enough information that they realised that once they vector you direct, the situation would be solved - although plenty of paperwork would need to follow. But, where [Kamarian] isn’t the primary language, and where [Kamarian] isn’t the style of thinking, there is no such thing as a Fuel MAYDAY, there is just a MAYDAY.

In the case of [specified country], it was known that certain operators declared MAYDAY to regain lost time. [Lead Balloon comment: Unintended consequences always flow from ‘good idea’ rules.] For this reason, if you declared a MAYDAY and the reason was you were going to land with less than Critical Fuel, then an official was going to come on board and double check that you really did land with less than or very close to 30 min of fuel. This then meant you were basically forced to enter the hold and wait until you are down to 35ish min of fuel before declaring the MAYDAY. And people wonder why planes crash more frequently in [specified country].
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 11:51
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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That's not correct. If you think you might land with less than Fixed Reserve you declare “minimum fuel”. So in the case that you are given an approach time that would infringe your fixed reserve you either divert, if not committed to the destination, or announce “minimum fuel”, I would also suggest you mention the latest approach time. If during the approach it becomes known that extra delays/track miles etc have caused you now to be landing with less than minimum fuel, you announce the Mayday. In this case, on landing you would then need to file a safety report, and would probably be visited by the local authority to see what fuel you landed with for their reports. If enroute and you find you are going to land at destination with less than final reserve, you stop somewhere closer where it's still intact and refuel.
I would suggest for commercial ops A robust fuel planning section in the OPS manual would help prevent this. For private ops some pilot CDF as mentioned earlier would keep you from the doo doo.
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 12:04
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Your opinion may be that it’s “not correct”, but all I did was post the factual experience of someone who has operated big flying things in first world aviation nations for a couple of decades.
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 14:32
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If all about MTOW, nations flown to, and decades flying I may be in with a chance .
If making a Mayday call when you still have holding fuel on board makes sense to you, fill ya boots.
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 15:37
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Lead Balloon -
Your opinion may be that it’s “not correct”, but all I did was post the factual experience of someone who has operated big flying things in first world aviation nations for a couple of decades.
=

Don =

If all about MTOW, nations flown to, and decades flying I may be in with a chance .
Yes - but if you only ever fly to Barcelona or in the sim - you really don't get to know about thew fuel policy do you - really ?

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Old 19th Jun 2018, 16:00
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
The joys of unintended consequences...

I asked someone who knows how low fuel MAYDAYS on calculated less than 30 minutes FFR work in first world aviation nations. That person’s response:
He's wrong.

Firstly, the vast majority of times, you arrive with fuel to an alternate, so if you are informed on arrival you will have to hold into FR fuel, you divert.

The rules for using your alternate fuel to reach destination in the event of unexpected delays enroute are such that you have to take possible traffic delays into account before doing so. If you then run into further unexpected delay, without alternate fuel, informing ATC that you can only hold till X time and will then be in an emergency will always get a reshuffle.

Look, I've actually been there, or very close. A two hour delay on departure put me into a peak arrival time which I hadn't allowed for- 100% my stuff up but there I was. The EAT I was given left me with about FR+15, so I gritted my teeth and didn't divert, landin with 1.5T over the 3.6 FR requirement.

Had I got further delayed my options would have been a quiet word with ATC, followed by a "minimum fueal call", then if all else failed a MAYDAY, which would have assured me priority. We used to average about three MAYDAUY MAYDAY MAYDAY FUEL calls as a company a year, and the result was priority, the jet on the ground, and a transparent review of the reasons behind, usually with a well done to the crew for correct application on of procedure.

You scoffed somewhat on the idea of several aircraft competing for a runway when you had little fuel.

At major hubs like Dubai, it happens on a regular basis, and we haven't run one dry yet.
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 19:11
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Well seems that went over like a lead balloon didn't it?

​​​​
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 20:51
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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Well seems that went over like a lead balloon didn't it?
Absolute gold don
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 21:31
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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He’s wrong.
I see. I wonder how he survived as PIC for all those decades flying transport category aircraft internationally. He must have just made up what he told me.

So the rule isn’t that you declare a MAYDAY when calculated fuel on landing will be less than 30 minutes? Looks like I’ve completely misunderstood the proposed rule as well.
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 21:37
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps you need someone to read those replies to your post and explain them to you LB . It's really not a very hard concept.
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 21:44
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps you fly for a different airline than the person I’m talking to, and perhaps the airline he flies for has different SOPs than yours? I know that the airline he flies for has clocked up statistically significant flying hours - unlike QANTAS.
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 21:47
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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Amendment 36 to ICAO Annex 6 Part I: Chapter 4 4.3.7 In-flight fuel management 4.3.7.1 An operator shall establish policies and procedures, approved by the State of the Operator, to ensure that in-flight fuel checks and fuel management are performed. 4.3.7.2 The pilot-in-command shall continually ensure that the amount of usable fuel remaining on board is not less than the fuel required to proceed to an aerodrome where a safe landing can be made with the planned final reserve fuel remaining upon landing. 4.3.7.2.1 The pilot-in-command shall request delay information from ATC when unanticipated circumstances may result in landing at the destination aerodrome with less than the final reserve fuel plus any fuel required to proceed to an alternate aerodrome or the fuel required to operate to an isolated aerodrome. 4.3.7.2.2 The pilot-in-command shall advise ATC of a minimum fuel state by declaring MINIMUM FUEL when, having committed to land at a specific aerodrome, the pilot calculates that any change to the existing clearance to that aerodrome may result in landing with less than planned final reserve fuel. Note 1.— The declaration of MINIMUM FUEL informs ATC that all planned aerodrome options have been reduced to a specific aerodrome of intended landing and any change to the existing clearance may result in landing with less than planned f inal reserve fuel. This is not an emergency situation but an indication that an emergency situation is possible should any additional delay occur. Note 2.— Guidance on declaring minimum fuel is contained in the Fuel Planning Manual (Doc 9976). It should be noted that Pilots should not expect any form of priority handling as a result of a “MINIMUM FUEL” declaration. ATC will, however, advise the flight crew of any additional expected delays as well as coordinate when transferring control of the aeroplane to ensure other ATC units are aware of the flight’s fuel state. 4.3.7.2.3 The pilot-in-command shall declare a situation of fuel emergency by broadcasting MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, FUEL, when the calculated usable fuel predicted to be available upon landing at the nearest aerodrome where a safe landing can be made is less than the planned final reserve fuel. Note 1.— The planned final reserve fuel refers to the value calculated in 4.3.6.3 e) 1) or 2) and is the minimum amount of fuel required upon landing at any aerodrome. Note 2.— The words “MAYDAY FUEL” describe the nature of the distress conditions as required in Annex 10, Volume II, 5.3.2.1, b) 3. Note 3.— Guidance on procedures for in-flight fuel management are contained in the Fuel Planning Manual (Doc 9976).

A copy and paste from the ICAO document . I have never worked at QF . And have never worked for an LCC as your friend might if he is happy to arrive with 45min fuel? Am guessing sleazy jet?
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 21:49
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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You scoffed somewhat on the idea of several aircraft competing for a runway when you had little fuel.
At Tibooburra.

Tibooburra is not a major hub like Dubai.

I was making a point about the silliness of a rule that treats them the same.

You should get someone to explain my posts to you.
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 21:53
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A copy and paste from the ICAO document.
I stand corrected.

I now realise that no country has filed any differences from ICAO and that all operators’ SOPS are in strict compliance with all ICAO documents.
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 22:03
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If your friend works in Euroland, Asia, middle East or the US he will be using that procedure.
Feel free to declare a Mayday when you still have holding fuel available Leady . Seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I will just follow the procedure as has been explained, and has been around around for several years now .
Your way seems very much more exciting .
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 01:23
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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Why is the CASA CAAP sample fuel calculation in Appendix A (C-210) in Pounds? Why weight? The Gauges are in Gallons/Litres, the dipstick is in Gallons/Litres, and the bowser is in Litres. Why add another calculation? The 210 burns 60 litres an hour, if you have 200 litres on board, you have 200 minutes in the air.

Why? Why?
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 04:10
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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Dangly - because the specific gravity of the fuel changes with temperature which affects the volume.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 04:13
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If you have less than 30 minutes fuel, then declare a mayday and land.

Brilliant. Annnnnd then what....

The majority of airports across the country that can cope with an RPT aircraft have AvTur on hand.

But not every GA airfield / ALA across the country has Avgas. If I have the choice of an unscheduled landing with 30 minutes reserves at West BurrumButtock (where there is no fuel) or continuing ahead to land with 20 minutes reserves at BurrumButtock (where there is fuel).....well then I know what my decision is going to be..

And here I am using the example of two airfields relatively close together. What are the options when one really gets in the great outdoors such as when traversing from Forrest to Coober Pedy, or from Warburton to The Rock?
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 05:30
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon

At Tibooburra.

Tibooburra is not a major hub like Dubai.

I was making a point about the silliness of a rule that treats them the same.

You should get someone to explain my posts to you.
This conversation has been conducted in good faith and respectfully. There is no need to geed snippy because you feel shown up. No, Tibooburra is not Dubai- but you still need fuel to get there, and more than one aircraft can be trying to get there at once.

Indeed the type of circumstance that leads to tight fuel situations, such as holding for weather or a special event leading to larger than usual traffic, make situations with multiple aircraft trying to use the only runway more likely than somewhere like Dubai where it's a normal part of the operation.

Bottom line- there has to be a minimum acceptable amount of fuel or else you ae in a situation where you need to ,land ASAP, also known as an emergency.
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