New Fuel Rules! Land in a "field" what a joke!
Outnabout, so you’re going to blithely burn your fixed reserves because you’ve somehow ended up miles away from an aerodrome with avgas? I’d be curious what circumstances are likely to lead to this happening.
This conversation has been conducted in good faith and respectfully.
Perhaps you need someone to read those replies to your post and explain them to you LB . It's really not a very hard concept.
I believe you have become confused with who posts what LB. That's not from Wiz. And he isn't with QF either .
Suppose you are flying to Innaminka from Brisbane you calculate you will only have 25 min remaining due wind after Thargomidah,. You overfly the Dig tree strip abut 40 miles out. Are you going to land at the tree or perhaps eat into reserves by 10 minutes or land at the tree and organise fuel and a drum pump from 40 miles away? (Bombers question to my partner: "you married to that guy? You like dogs? God bless him.)
When people pay for a ticket, if the aeroplane hasn't got the legs to do a trip in one go without going below final reserve, we plan for a refuel stop enroute .
if during the planning stage you have doubts of making it, either pick another aeroplane that is up to the task, or stop enroute.
How much into your reserves are you willing to go?
Another question for you sunfish, if you were doing that trip as a NAV test during training, and you pushed on through and landed below your final reserve, what would the outcome have been?
if during the planning stage you have doubts of making it, either pick another aeroplane that is up to the task, or stop enroute.
How much into your reserves are you willing to go?
Another question for you sunfish, if you were doing that trip as a NAV test during training, and you pushed on through and landed below your final reserve, what would the outcome have been?
When posts are in passive voice - “this conversation” - it’s not clear whether the poster is talking about the thread generally or only the poster’s posts.
In any event, the Wiz simply dismissed - “He’s wrong” - what I posted as the first-hand experience of someone with that first-hand experience. From the airline that has blessed Australia with at least two Directors of Aviation Safety. If the “conversation” was in fact being conducted “respectfully”, the appropriate and respectful response is: “My experience is different”.
Well our experience is much different to your friends. Re read his post, but instead of declaring a Mayday with 45 min of fuel on board, change his call to “ Minimum fuel last hold time 0015” for example. ATC, being aware of the procedure now know if they don't get him out of the hold by time 0015, he will be declaring a Mayday . They then rearrange the flow to prevent that from happening, and by doing so, your friend does not need to make the Mayday call as his reserve is intact . Now consider while being vectored for approach they slow him down early, or add extra miles he was not expecting, if this will cause him to land with less than final reserve, he would then make his Mayday call, and be turned in earlier.
Would you agree that by following the procedure as it is expected to be done, he has not confused ATC, nor has he put any flight following the procedure correctly in jeopardy. When you make the Mayday call ATC are expecting that if you were to commense the approach right now, you will be landing with something less than your reserve. They don't think you are making a preemptive Mayday call for 15 min time.
His condescending to attitude towards ATC in his post is out of order, as it is he that has caused the problem. They were just trying to do their job and help him.
As an aside, the previous procedure was exactly the same, except a PAN call was made instead of the Min Fuel call .It was explained, at the time, as some states don't acknowledge or understand PAN calls, Min Fuel will be used instead to prevent any confusion. It would seem seem this is not the case.
Would you agree that by following the procedure as it is expected to be done, he has not confused ATC, nor has he put any flight following the procedure correctly in jeopardy. When you make the Mayday call ATC are expecting that if you were to commense the approach right now, you will be landing with something less than your reserve. They don't think you are making a preemptive Mayday call for 15 min time.
His condescending to attitude towards ATC in his post is out of order, as it is he that has caused the problem. They were just trying to do their job and help him.
As an aside, the previous procedure was exactly the same, except a PAN call was made instead of the Min Fuel call .It was explained, at the time, as some states don't acknowledge or understand PAN calls, Min Fuel will be used instead to prevent any confusion. It would seem seem this is not the case.
Last edited by donpizmeov; 20th Jun 2018 at 12:24.
Suppose you are flying to Innaminka from Brisbane you calculate you will only have 25 min remaining due wind after Thargomidah,. You overfly the Dig tree strip abut 40 miles out. Are you going to land at the tree or perhaps eat into reserves by 10 minutes or land at the tree and organise fuel and a drum pump from 40 miles away? (Bombers question to my partner: "you married to that guy? You like dogs? God bless him.)
Well our experience is much different to your friends. Re read his post, but instead of declaring a Mayday with 45 min of fuel on board, change his call to “ Minimum fuel last hold time 0015” for example. ATC, being aware of the procedure now know if they don't get him out of the hold by time 0015, he will be declaring a Mayday . They then rearrange the flow to prevent that from happening, and by doing so, your friend does not need to make the Mayday call as his reserve is intact . Now consider while being vectored for approach they slow him down early, or add extra miles he was not expecting, if this will cause him to land with less than final reserve, he would then make his Mayday call, and be turned in earlier.
Would you agree that by following the procedure as it is expected to be done, he has not confused ATC, nor has he put any flight following the procedure correctly in jeopardy. When you make the Mayday call ATC are expecting that if you were to commense the approach right now, you will be landing with something less than your reserve. They don't think you are making a preemptive Mayday call for 15 min time.
His condescending to attitude towards ATC in his post is out of order, as it is he that has caused the problem. They were just trying to do their job and help him.
As an aside, the previous procedure was exactly the same, except a PAN call was made instead of the Min Fuel call .It was explained, at the time, as some states don't acknowledge or understand PAN calls, Min Fuel will be used instead to prevent any confusion. It would seem seem this is not the case.
Would you agree that by following the procedure as it is expected to be done, he has not confused ATC, nor has he put any flight following the procedure correctly in jeopardy. When you make the Mayday call ATC are expecting that if you were to commense the approach right now, you will be landing with something less than your reserve. They don't think you are making a preemptive Mayday call for 15 min time.
His condescending to attitude towards ATC in his post is out of order, as it is he that has caused the problem. They were just trying to do their job and help him.
As an aside, the previous procedure was exactly the same, except a PAN call was made instead of the Min Fuel call .It was explained, at the time, as some states don't acknowledge or understand PAN calls, Min Fuel will be used instead to prevent any confusion. It would seem seem this is not the case.
I implicitly trust his description of the practical consequences of the rules and procedures applicable to the operations of which he is aware. Other posters? Not so much.
That is surprising. The CX pilots I know are good operators.
Lead Balloon,
I'm a CX pilot of several decades too. With all due respect to your brother I suggest he re-reads Ops Manual Part A paragraph 8.3.8.5 "Minimum Fuel" and paragraph 8.3.8.6 "MAYDAY Fuel (Emergency Fuel)". He is wrong. Our procedures are word for word as donpizmeov has posted here from ICAO.
I'm a CX pilot of several decades too. With all due respect to your brother I suggest he re-reads Ops Manual Part A paragraph 8.3.8.5 "Minimum Fuel" and paragraph 8.3.8.6 "MAYDAY Fuel (Emergency Fuel)". He is wrong. Our procedures are word for word as donpizmeov has posted here from ICAO.
Lead Balloon,
I'm a CX pilot of several decades too. With all due respect to your brother I suggest he re-reads Ops Manual Part A paragraph 8.3.8.5 "Minimum Fuel" and paragraph 8.3.8.6 "MAYDAY Fuel (Emergency Fuel)". He is wrong. Our procedures are word for word as donpizmeov has posted here from ICAO.
I'm a CX pilot of several decades too. With all due respect to your brother I suggest he re-reads Ops Manual Part A paragraph 8.3.8.5 "Minimum Fuel" and paragraph 8.3.8.6 "MAYDAY Fuel (Emergency Fuel)". He is wrong. Our procedures are word for word as donpizmeov has posted here from ICAO.
I’ve already said: I implicitly trust my brother’s description of the practical consequences of the rules and procedures applicable to the operations of which he is aware. Other posters? Not so much.
We have alll had days like that .Don't pick on him.
But not every GA airfield / ALA across the country has Avgas. If I have the choice of an unscheduled landing with 30 minutes reserves at West BurrumButtock (where there is no fuel) or continuing ahead to land with 20 minutes reserves at BurrumButtock (where there is fuel).....well then I know what my decision is going to be..
Confirmation bias, also called confirmatorybias or myside bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses.
Thanks. I’ll add that to my “Big Book Of Aviation Wisdom Learned Only By Reading Posts On PPRuNe”.
It’s pretty simple stuff and not worth getting knickers in a twist over.
Ask yourself two questions;
1/ Am I committed to this airfield?
and
2/ Will further delay result in me landing with less than FFR?
If you answer yes to both questions then declare ‘Minimum Fuel’.
If at any stage it becomes apparent that you will land with less than FFR declare ‘Mayday Fuel’.
Thats it.
Ask yourself two questions;
1/ Am I committed to this airfield?
and
2/ Will further delay result in me landing with less than FFR?
If you answer yes to both questions then declare ‘Minimum Fuel’.
If at any stage it becomes apparent that you will land with less than FFR declare ‘Mayday Fuel’.
Thats it.