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New Fuel Rules! Land in a "field" what a joke!

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New Fuel Rules! Land in a "field" what a joke!

Old 9th Jun 2018, 12:25
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
How many years have you been flying, AerocatS2A?

What is the average duration of your flights?

Your judgment strikes me as that of someone who doesnít do much flying in the kinds of circumstances that I fly. Your judgment of me strikes me as that of someone who has a narrow range of experience.
About 23 years and flights have ranged from 12 minutes to 8 hours. I don't doubt that I have different experience to yours though I'm not sure how length of flight is relevant.

Go ahead then, tell me how you spend most of your time flying single piston engined machines filled with ferry tanks and hand pumps across the Pacific.

P.S. 3m, but only with an updraft

mattyj, agreed on the Pan call. I think the key point really is that you tell someone something so you don't get vectored around the place until you run out of fuel.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 12:27
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mattyj
Surely a Pan Pan call would suffice..inside FFR doesnít strike me as a bona fide emergency!? Then whatís left to declare when you actually run out of fuel??
Well, one thing I can assure you of is that it is the policy listed in the approved ops manual of most airlines that landing with less than FR is a mandatory "mayday".
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 12:28
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Lead Balloon, my judgement of you is based on what you write. That is all I know of you. I don't even know if you are talking about a C152 or a B52.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 13:19
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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And on a lighter note a lovely story I heard a few years ago.

An older very high hour bush pilot cut his fuel a bit fine in his little Cessna one day heading to a private country strip out in the wheat belt, the little Cessna coughed sputted and stopped and moments later rumbled to a stop in a wheat paddock.

The old fella wasn't much keen on walking the last few km back to the strip and as many a country person would know there is usually a bit left in the tank it just needs some encouragement, so he rocked the plane while sitting in it and noted the gauges gave a slight hint of movement. Movement means there's hope and he figured if he kept rocking it a bit he might get enough to where it will count. Turns out he was on the money as when he turned the key it fired up, so without wasting a moment he fire walled it and got airborne, it was good while it lasted but just didn't last long and stopped again before he got to 100'.

It did however get him into the next paddock and some 800m closer to where he was going. Not yet ready to admit defeat he repeated the rocking trick and again got airborne but again only to about 100' before it coughed and stopped, still he was now another 800 odd metres closer to the strip. After 3 goes and 3 paddocks he made it to the strip.

You're never beaten till you give up.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 20:48
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AerocatS2A
Lead Balloon, my judgement of you is based on what you write. That is all I know of you. I don't even know if you are talking about a C152 or a B52.
You judge me based on your personal opinion, sometimes labouring under misconceptions. Your first judgment was:
Personally I think your example is a safety issue, not because you would be likely to run out of fuel, but because you have a disregard for the rules if following them causes inconvenience.
You then conceded that I hadn’t broken any rules in the scenario I gave.


Your next judgment was:
The fact you didn't realise this in your own planning is a bit of a worry.
But what you called a “fact” was not a fact.

You then judged on the basis of your opinion of the safety ‘high ground’, using the deliciously ambiguous word “minimum”:
I guess the difference is that my judgement is about when to take MORE than the minimum fuel, not about when it's ok to eat into the minimum fuel. Your mileage obviously varies. Touch wood, I hope I don't have an experience similar to yours.
At least you got this right:
The purpose of the fixed reserve is to keep the fuel tank wet.
And I’ve achieved that on every flight in the last 33 years.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 00:33
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Upon closer reading of the rule, it appears that in most cases you would be playing with fire even if you came close to running your tanks down to the new requirements.

We would be used to using something like a 45 minute reserve at the cruise burn rate (45 litres in a C206 as an example).

Now (for day VFR at least), they are requiring 30 minutes at "holding burn rate" (something like 25 litres in a C206). Not sure I would be too comfortable letting my tanks get down to those figures in any case (even with modern guages and fuel totalizer).

CASA's supposed intention was to make things safer, but if everyone starts using this 30 minute holding rate rather than 45 minute cruise rate, then CASA might be disappointed to find the outcome of their 'new safety requirement' is more fuel exhaustion incidents/accidents.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 00:57
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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I think I will stick to my personal fuel reserve policy - fixed reserve of 45 minutes plus variable reserve of 10% of all flight fuel required.
This fits into my two rules of aviation safety.
Rule one - donít fly into the ground
Rule two - always have enough fuel to ensure you do not disregard rule one.
This practice has kept me safe for fifty years and I see no reason to change at this time.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 02:25
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Rule one - don’t fly into the ground
Facetious question, how do you land?
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 04:01
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan
Facetious question, how do you land?
By flying on to the ground .
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 04:42
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Where's the Ignore button again?
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 14:15
  #71 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by mikewil
CASA's supposed intention was to make things safer, but if everyone starts using this 30 minute holding rate rather than 45 minute cruise rate, then CASA might be disappointed to find the outcome of their 'new safety requirement' is more fuel exhaustion incidents/accidents.
The planning requirement has always been 30 minutes holding at 1500 ft at your landing weight. The lastest ICAO change only has 15 minutes for ETDO.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 16:15
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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SWH you are wasting your time. It's best just to sit back and watch. I wonder how the rest of the world can make this work easily but some of these hotshots can't?
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 01:55
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by swh
The lastest ICAO change only has 15 minutes for ETDO.
Are you sure that is fixed final reserve, FFR??
Because that flies in the face of the whole reason for a FFR ---- to try and ensure the engine(s) are still running at touchdown.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 04:34
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Bloggs, agree,post #71 is a case in point.
By flying on to the ground
And it seems most achieve that aim, rather than On Eyre's "into the ground". From ED's link 89 events no injuries, 19 minor injuries, 12 serious injuries, 19 fatal (49 lives lost).
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 04:48
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Nah Megan, Cat's alright, he was being facetious wink wink. I was referring to a couple of posts further back than that.
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 06:17
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Originally Posted by LeadSled
Are you sure that is fixed final reserve, FFR??
Because that flies in the face of the whole reason for a FFR ---- to try and ensure the engine(s) are still running at touchdown.
Tootle pip!!
Folks,
Having given the above a little more thought, having 15 minutes in one tank feeding one engine is the same as 30 minutes feeding two, the original concept for FFR remains.
A good example of the desirability of thinking a little more before attacking the keyboard.
Vital Actions Checklist; (1) Brain ---- ON.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 07:47
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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The 15 mins applies to depress now as well LeadSled.
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Old 12th Jun 2018, 08:58
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AerocatS2A
The 15 mins applies to depress now as well LeadSled.
I must go and have a look at the Annex, maybe the intent of concept of FFR has been lost?
Tootle pip!!
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Old 12th Jun 2018, 10:43
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Where do you stand LS on the idea that some have that the FFR is there to be used? What did you teach?
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Old 12th Jun 2018, 11:07
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You can use it .You just need to make a mayday call first .
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