CASA Class G Discussion Paper
Thread Starter
If your knowledge is superior where did the 5000’ come from?
A FS did exist before the 60s. Just had a different name but a similar service.
And no doubt 1.7 miles north of Hornsby right in the middle of the light aircraft lane you will change to the Somersby CTAF on 132.1.as you will be within its 20 mile radius . Complete madness
A FS did exist before the 60s. Just had a different name but a similar service.
And no doubt 1.7 miles north of Hornsby right in the middle of the light aircraft lane you will change to the Somersby CTAF on 132.1.as you will be within its 20 mile radius . Complete madness
Last edited by Dick Smith; 7th Dec 2017 at 10:36.
Anyone able to give a rational, safety-based explanation for extending CTAF procedures to 20nm radius? I don’t get it.
What happens at an unmarked airfield that’s 17nms from an aerodrome with a discreet CTAF and 17nms from an aerodrome that uses 126.7?
Thread Starter
Lead.
Yes. It’s an attempt to go back to a system where radio arranged separation can be utilised between IFR and VFR aircraft in uncontrolled airspace
That’s what we had before the AMATs changes of the early 90s .
It’s actually impossible to do this without employing lots more staff and going back to the old or similar full position procedures .
Under ICAO if traffic information is required for safety reasons to IFR aircraft on VFR aircraft it requires a minimum of class D airspace. And it costs money'!
These fools are attempting to invent a zero cost system using the fare paying public as guinea pigs.
They are so ignorant that they think that they can design airspace procedures and dimensions on a “ voting” system using people who have no training or knowledge of airspace design.
The problem was generated by Airservices producing a map with the ATC frequency boundaries back on without even thinking how the half wound back system would work.
It can’t. That’s why no other country in the world has such a system.
Wait for the next step- 50 nm CTAF radius to 10,000’
Yes. It’s an attempt to go back to a system where radio arranged separation can be utilised between IFR and VFR aircraft in uncontrolled airspace
That’s what we had before the AMATs changes of the early 90s .
It’s actually impossible to do this without employing lots more staff and going back to the old or similar full position procedures .
Under ICAO if traffic information is required for safety reasons to IFR aircraft on VFR aircraft it requires a minimum of class D airspace. And it costs money'!
These fools are attempting to invent a zero cost system using the fare paying public as guinea pigs.
They are so ignorant that they think that they can design airspace procedures and dimensions on a “ voting” system using people who have no training or knowledge of airspace design.
The problem was generated by Airservices producing a map with the ATC frequency boundaries back on without even thinking how the half wound back system would work.
It can’t. That’s why no other country in the world has such a system.
Wait for the next step- 50 nm CTAF radius to 10,000’
None of that makes sense to me, Dick.
Thread Starter
Answer to the first part of post 179
You would be on the Wollongong CTAF of 127.3. ( within the YWOL 20 nm CTAF)
Hold on. You would be in the Mittagong circuit area! That CTAF is 126.7!
Well thought out CASA.
You would be on the Wollongong CTAF of 127.3. ( within the YWOL 20 nm CTAF)
Hold on. You would be in the Mittagong circuit area! That CTAF is 126.7!
Well thought out CASA.
Thread Starter
And when you are on the Cessnock CTAF of 122.65 when 13 miles North West I suggest keeping a bit of a look out as you will be in the middle of the Singleton 126.7 circuit area,!
Total incompetent stuff up. Watch for this paper to be quickly withdrawn!
Total incompetent stuff up. Watch for this paper to be quickly withdrawn!
What about my unmarked strip 12nms from Griffith (126.55) and 12nms from Leeton (132.85)?
Thread Starter
Thought I may remind those interested what the NAS educational material stated in relation to when the CTAF should be used.
Note how it covers all the relevant safety issues without dimensions.
Dot point one. When close to an aerodrome to gain situational awareness of other aircraft operations
Dot point two. When approaching or departing an aerodrome
Dot point three. When en route if operating in the airspace normally used for arriving and departing traffic at an aerodrome .
And Lead. No probs. New charts will be printed showing every CTAF that has conflicting 20 mile problems.
Special endorsement training will be required .
Note how it covers all the relevant safety issues without dimensions.
Dot point one. When close to an aerodrome to gain situational awareness of other aircraft operations
Dot point two. When approaching or departing an aerodrome
Dot point three. When en route if operating in the airspace normally used for arriving and departing traffic at an aerodrome .
And Lead. No probs. New charts will be printed showing every CTAF that has conflicting 20 mile problems.
Special endorsement training will be required .
I’m not ‘grizzling’. I just want to understand how it will work, and the underlying logic.
The primary problem with changes over the last 20 or so years is inadequate education in advance. That, plus anything counter-intuitive encourages error.
Well argued, Bloggs, as usual.
The primary problem with changes over the last 20 or so years is inadequate education in advance. That, plus anything counter-intuitive encourages error.
Well argued, Bloggs, as usual.
My 2c. Providing the following principles are met I don't care what they do:
1. Major principle:
a. IFR aircraft need traffic information for separation.
b. VFR should generally monitor rather than broadcast however common sense should be used. In places like aircraft lanes, aerodromes etc appropriate radio procedures should be used.
c. All aircraft should be able to request appropriate information or services relevant to their level of operations, if required (eg for VFR requesting changes to sartimes, QNH, wx updates etc)
d. Radio transmissions should not be used in place of lookout for VFR (the number of calls sometimes made operating in the circuit in some CTAFs where aircraft repeatedly call every circuit leg come to mind
).
4. Same hymn sheet
a. People should be able to readily find the appropriate frequency to use for their location and operations.
b. People should be able to readily find and study the standard phraseology for all the typical radio transmissions appropriate for their level of operations in the AIPs (and duplicated in the VFG).
How hard is that to implement?
Is the existing system that bad? [shrugs shoulders]
1. Major principle:
People roughly in the same areas should be listening on the same frequency, not different ones.
2. Secondary principle: a. Areas where a lot of traffic is brought closer together for a common purpose (busy aerodromes, transit lanes etc) should have a discrete frequency.
b. Areas where congestion might be an issue (sydney basin?) should have a discrete frequency to avoid too much chatter.
3. Use of radiob. Areas where congestion might be an issue (sydney basin?) should have a discrete frequency to avoid too much chatter.
a. IFR aircraft need traffic information for separation.
b. VFR should generally monitor rather than broadcast however common sense should be used. In places like aircraft lanes, aerodromes etc appropriate radio procedures should be used.
c. All aircraft should be able to request appropriate information or services relevant to their level of operations, if required (eg for VFR requesting changes to sartimes, QNH, wx updates etc)
d. Radio transmissions should not be used in place of lookout for VFR (the number of calls sometimes made operating in the circuit in some CTAFs where aircraft repeatedly call every circuit leg come to mind
).a. People should be able to readily find the appropriate frequency to use for their location and operations.
b. People should be able to readily find and study the standard phraseology for all the typical radio transmissions appropriate for their level of operations in the AIPs (and duplicated in the VFG).
Is the existing system that bad? [shrugs shoulders]
Thread Starter
Which “ existing system”
Do you mean the one where CASA insist that circuit calls at nonmapped airports be on the ATC area frequency.?
Or the one that most of the RAPACs wanted? That is that calls on such airports be on the 126.7 Multicom?
Jonkstor. What would be the problem with harmonising with the simple proven FAA system?
Notice how CASA did not mention in any of their paper work how that actually worked and why it could not be introduced here.
Do you mean the one where CASA insist that circuit calls at nonmapped airports be on the ATC area frequency.?
Or the one that most of the RAPACs wanted? That is that calls on such airports be on the 126.7 Multicom?
Jonkstor. What would be the problem with harmonising with the simple proven FAA system?
Notice how CASA did not mention in any of their paper work how that actually worked and why it could not be introduced here.
I haven't noticed problems with people making calls at ALAs on area (mostly because they don't - which makes sense if the ALA has low usage - usually there is no need to tell the world you are turning base at Dragatinalong station, on the rare occasions they need to then the increase in chatter is negligible).
If they changed that to be 126.7 then I wouldn't say that is the end of the world either. So long as people applied common sense and know and follow the procedure.
Changing CTAF boundaries to be 20 nm and having people using the same airspace confused about which frequency to monitor or broadcast on is a different kettle though.
Like I said that is my 2c. In the same area - listen on the same frequency, in high congestion points dedicated frequencies, avoid unnecessary calls, listen more than talk, use common sense, be able to easily find the appropriate frequency and be able to easily find references to the appropriate phraseology.
Basically I just want to avoid change that in the attempt to simplify actually makes it more complicated. Whatever change (or no change) - measure it by first principles - does it encourage clear, easily followed communication with people that need to know what is going on (and remembering listening is a big part of communicating).
Thread Starter
This change makes it far more complicated and clearly won’t work. I have just spoken to a number of RAPAC members and all are opposed to the 20 mile dimension. Claim that there has been no discussion on this .
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Have just read the discussion paper with amazed horror.
Horror; because I knew from reading it I would agree with Dick Smith's comments above, even without reading them, (and I do).
Horror; as they are not rolling back to pre-partially-implemented-then-partially-rolled-back-NAS, they are proposing (mostly) the LLAMP model THEY cancelled before that. They cancelled it by not approving changes to the dimensions of the then-defined CTAF areas.
May Jesus pee in a bucket, what are these useless wombats on???
When I fly enroute I fly my plane, look out the windows, and listening to the radio is a low priority task, with the volume down. I have to listen to that crap when I'm working, not when I'm having fun.
Maybe it is the fault of those who implemented the NAS without explaining that "traffic" translates from the American as "circuit area". Then the incongruity of proposing that somebody at 5000' 20nm from an aerodrome is in the circuit area would be apparent?
Horror; because I knew from reading it I would agree with Dick Smith's comments above, even without reading them, (and I do).
Horror; as they are not rolling back to pre-partially-implemented-then-partially-rolled-back-NAS, they are proposing (mostly) the LLAMP model THEY cancelled before that. They cancelled it by not approving changes to the dimensions of the then-defined CTAF areas.
May Jesus pee in a bucket, what are these useless wombats on???
When I fly enroute I fly my plane, look out the windows, and listening to the radio is a low priority task, with the volume down. I have to listen to that crap when I'm working, not when I'm having fun.
Maybe it is the fault of those who implemented the NAS without explaining that "traffic" translates from the American as "circuit area". Then the incongruity of proposing that somebody at 5000' 20nm from an aerodrome is in the circuit area would be apparent?
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Jonkstor. What would be the problem with harmonising with the simple proven FAA system?
Drunk with pride at resolving IFR issues said pilots extend their skillsets to separation with VFR, and this f@$knitted proposal from CASA is backing that trend.
