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King Air down at Essendon?

Old 26th Sep 2018, 02:25
  #1041 (permalink)  
 
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Can someone who currently flies a B200 please comment on the view of the rudder trim wheel from the left hand seat. Having looked at a number of cockpit photos it appears that because the rudder trim wheel is oriented slightly more to the horizontal and is located down and to the right of the aileron trim wheel that the pilot's view of it may be somewhat restricted if not obstructed.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 02:50
  #1042 (permalink)  
 
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... the SIM pilot is not reported as having made any comment on the controllability at the speeds exhibited in the incident. The SIM pilots comments are that the yaw was manageable at lift off, then challenging, then uncontrollable after an unspecified period with the aerodynamic load at 140 knots and above. The aerodynamic load can be expected to increase with the square of airspeed - so the rudder force required to correct the LH rudder trim at 140 knots will be very different than at 108 - 112 knots.
Old Akro,

I think you have oversimplified the situation. There are many reasons why the simulator performance would be too dissimilar from the real aircraft's performance to draw reliable conclusions. Being a level D simulator means that the control forces (e.g. rudder forces) for regular assymmetric flight would be accurate, but for the case of symmetric flight with full rudder trim, it appears there is no certification requirement for accurate representation of flight characteristics and control forces (based on my limited research).

For a simulator to faithfully exhibit those things would require the manufacturer to possess the data for them, and from my reading between the lines of this report, it appears this manufacturer does not.

And, I would suggest you are not accounting for all the aerodynamic effects that were contributing to the yaw moments that morning. The fin/rudder would have been contributing a nose left (NL) moment, sure, but there was also a significant NR from the fuselage body aft of the CG. But at such high angles of sideslip, I believe the fin would have been somewhat stalled, thus reducing the NL moment.

So, nowhere near as straightforward as you suggest to make an armchair adjudication on the controllability of the aircraft that morning.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 02:54
  #1043 (permalink)  
601
 
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I reckon I can go from neutral, hard to the stop on one side, hard to the stop on the other, then back to neutral in under 5.
If the pilot had moved the rudder trim to the full left position during the pre-flight check and was distracted and forgot to reset it to the centre position, as soon as the pilot detected an out of trim situation on the take-off run, I would have thought that a "oops, the rudder trim" thought would have occured.

As for the time to reset the trim to the central position, that is unimportant. What is inportant It is the time that it would take to decrease the load on his leg until the load was manageable. Maybe even half a turn would have been sufficent.

Back last century, we had a chief engineer who, after a 100hrly, would set all three trim to "one corner." I challenged him about it and his reply was "just checking to see if you pilots do your checks correctly" The mind boggles sometimes with some men's stupidity.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 04:26
  #1044 (permalink)  
 
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601, saw the result of an A36 that came out of a 100 hourly, when the pilot rotated on take off he found he had his hands full, the nose slammed down hard enough to take the nosewheel out. Ooops, came out of the shop with full nose down trim applied, pilot rushed to beat last light for home.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 04:43
  #1045 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post
We’re taking about CVR voice only recordings aren’t we? Or does it contain black-box type control monitoring too? Just wondering how the voice recording would actually have helped with this for a single pilot operation.
I was thinking CVR--although flight data would be better.
It was 'beaten' into our generation to call the items of the vital-actions and checklists as we did them--even if that was single-pilot and from memory. Don't pilots say what they're doing anymore?
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 05:10
  #1046 (permalink)  
 
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We’re taking about CVR voice only recordings aren’t we?
CVR in a single pilot aeroplane picks up a whole range of other useful pieces of information, Squawk7700.
The recording can be used to analyse the propeller RPM signatures which would indicate whether there were any variations to the engine power settings, for example.

Also, it can reveal the sounds of control and switch movements. In this accident, there is some uncertainty as to whether the flaps were extended for takeoff but retracted during the short flight. The CVR may have recorded the sound of the flap motor - or the possible absence of that sound.

Sometimes, discussions involving the passengers. For example:

Pax to pilot: "Hey, how do you steer this thing around on the ground? Is that little wheel there what you use?"

Pilot: "Nah, that is the rudder trim wheel. Only for use in flight. See, I will roll it all the way over but the plane keeps taxying straight ... see that?"
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 05:13
  #1047 (permalink)  
 
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Folks, don’t place too much reliance on the sim to provide you with definitive answers. It’s merely a computer model which attempts to replicate the real aircraft’s behavior within certain very limited parameters for which there is data. Outside those parameters, sims from different manufacturers or software providers will likely behave quite differently. This is likely why ATSB saw no value in using the sim.

However, using a couple of near identical aircraft to try and replicate the likely configuration of that aircraft from a safe height may have at least provided partial verification of the theory.

At age 67, it’s entirely possible that the health of the pilots knees were “challenged”. He may not have been able to apply sufficient pressure to overcome the force on the rudder to counteract the full left left trim.

Either way, without an FDR, no one will really know.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 05:43
  #1048 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by georgeeipi View Post
It was common practice in other aircraft type to go through the 'dead-leg dead engine' procedure.
On a side note, blindly applying “dead foot, dead engine” motto on a turbine aircraft can bite you.
Runaway engine due to FCU failure comes to mind.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 06:01
  #1049 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 601 View Post
If the pilot had moved the rudder trim to the full left position during the pre-flight check and was distracted and forgot to reset it to the centre position, as soon as the pilot detected an out of trim situation on the take-off run, I would have thought that a "oops, the rudder trim" thought would have occured.

As for the time to reset the trim to the central position, that is unimportant. What is inportant It is the time that it would take to decrease the load on his leg until the load was manageable. Maybe even half a turn would have been sufficent.

Back last century, we had a chief engineer who, after a 100hrly, would set all three trim to "one corner." I challenged him about it and his reply was "just checking to see if you pilots do your checks correctly" The mind boggles sometimes with some men's stupidity.
Similar experience here, but with no real visible indication anything had been changed. Servos had been zeroed, so no trim. Prior to that aircraft flew hands off. Took both feet on one pedal to maintain control to re-circuit and land.

Which is the part that makes it kind of relevant to the thread.

One thing to say leg would not handle it. We do have two.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 06:57
  #1050 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by currawong View Post
Similar experience here, but with no real visible indication anything had been changed. Servos had been zeroed, so no trim. Prior to that aircraft flew hands off. Took both feet on one pedal to maintain control to re-circuit and land.

Which is the part that makes it kind of relevant to the thread.

One thing to say leg would not handle it. We do have two.
All good, but were you 67 years old and were your knees “dodgy”?

What really intrigues me is that the B200 could not manage to stagger out to a safe altitude with both engines seemingly operating normally, no matter how radical the sideslip was.

And would not the rudder pedals be displaced because of the trim? Surely the pilot would have felt the asymmetry there? Unless both feet were flat on the floor.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 07:27
  #1051 (permalink)  
 
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What really intrigues me is that the B200 could not manage to stagger out to a safe altitude with both engines seemingly operating normally, no matter how radical the sideslip was.
I think this accident demonstrates just how detrimental gross sideslip can be, lucille. Take a look at figure 20 on page 25 of the report. Positions 5 and 6 show the aircraft appears to be going almost sideways. You will have to zoom in on the image.

The report doesn't explicitly say so, but reading between the lines, they seem to be saying that, prior to the 34s mark, the pilot was managing the yaw and the aircraft was climbing and accelerating, but at 34 seconds, his leg "gave out". The sideslip then rapidly increased to 30-40 degrees, the acceleration ceased and the climb turned into a descent. Refer figure 22, page 28.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 07:33
  #1052 (permalink)  
 
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So what’s your theory on how the rudder got to be trimmed to where it was and when it was trimmed there, FGD, and what is the basis of that theory?
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 07:56
  #1053 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
601, saw the result of an A36 that came out of a 100 hourly, when the pilot rotated on take off he found he had his hands full, the nose slammed down hard enough to take the nosewheel out. Ooops, came out of the shop with full nose down trim applied, pilot rushed to beat last light for home.
At least with an A36 he wouldn't have had an issue with rudder trim..
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 07:59
  #1054 (permalink)  
 
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At least in my Environment (EASA AOC OPS) noone would run all trims left and right and similar stuff. Not even Autofeather- Rudderboost checks where performend when Pax where present.
But! Both Crew did check all 3 Trims for this reason: We landed the B200 with the electric Elevator trim Running aft and reducing Pwr. So after ldg it would Point almost full up. Rudder trim was right of Center for Appr. and left oft Center for T/O. So just for the case that the PNF hadnt set them back, we Cecked Trim: Aileron where it was(Most KA are not straight so Ailerontrim slightly left or right)- Elevatortrim 2up std ( 1up if full to the brim-3up if just Crew with 4 full tanks) and "Ruddertrim" on the left edge of the Centermark.

This is in good View and anyway if the beast would yaw a KA Pilot stomps the Rudder and retrims before thinking what happened....

To the Statement with both feet on the Rudder: Iam in the last 10 yrs of Commercial ops and not doing Sports. I had to do a Conquest ( C425) Type Rating) a few yes. ago and could not hold the Rudderforces with one foot.
With 2 feet after the TR (16H) i had Backpain for some 3 month because of the SE Flying.Conquest scared the hell out of me (1.8% SE Gradient), after quitting i never gave it a second Thought.
In a B200 i can manage the Rudder, not easy but i can slam it down and hold it there until ihave solved the Problem!
Back to Topic:
No Pilot will try to Climb in a full Sideslip in a KA. You control the Rudder all the time during Manual Flight. Both Engine are rotating the same Direction- Torque has to be counteracted with rudder with every pitch and Speedchange for all of the flight. We even retrimmed on Autopilot, to get that ball centered.

@ Lucille: you wont get far in a KA with your feet on floor

Something did CASA miss or worse on this Report.
Well that i have my own opinion for Single Pilot Operation of Elderly People is a different Thing. But this problably wasnt a Problem here: If People get behind the Task they dont scream for help, they usually surrender silent ( freeze). I have been flying as a Safety Pilot with aging Pilots.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 09:17
  #1055 (permalink)  
 
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So the trims all are there to relieve load on flying the aircraft. One would think that if the load is so great he would have reach down and put in the opposite load on the ruddef trim. This would relieve the load on his leg.
lets face some facts here and now. Learn from this so it dont happens to yourself.
he has **** up pure and simple.
A small error in not setting the trim has taken them all out. Over thinking whats going on rather than fly it out and then get on top has caused this accident.
There is no yaw control from the aircraft because it is doing it all right as in both engines were making power.

As for the CVR it all came about in this class of aircraft because of anotherB200 accident in FNQ when a flight between miners cause an aft CofG causeing a complete loss of control of the aircraft. That cause the cao to fit Cvr,s. The have no data inputs only voice mic and inputs from tghe audio pannel.

Mmm 2000rpm and not 1746 rpm well ill be !
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 09:33
  #1056 (permalink)  
 
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So what’s your theory on how the rudder got to be trimmed to where it was and when it was trimmed there, FGD, and what is the basis of that theory?
I'd be looking at the flight previous to the accident flight. That flight was on Saturday, 4th Feb, 2017. YPAD-YMEN. Who was on that flight? Was it an empty return from Adelaide, or were there pax being carried? Was there another pilot on board, along for the ride, receiving an informal assymmetrics demonstration?

I don't believe the trim was left at full NL due to an interruption to a functional check. I don't believe this pilot would have been checking his trims with such zeal.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 11:53
  #1057 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Connedrod View Post
As for the CVR it all came about in this class of aircraft because of anotherB200 accident in FNQ when a flight between miners cause an aft CofG causeing a complete loss of control of the aircraft. That cause the cao to fit Cvr,s.
Yeah?.... When was that? I hope you are not referring to VH-KTE.

Last edited by BEACH KING; 26th Sep 2018 at 12:05.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 12:00
  #1058 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
I'd be looking at the flight previous to the accident flight. That flight was on Saturday, 4th Feb, 2017. YPAD-YMEN. Who was on that flight? Was it an empty return from Adelaide, or were there pax being carried? Was there another pilot on board, along for the ride, receiving an informal assymmetrics demonstration?

I don't believe the trim was left at full NL due to an interruption to a functional check. I don't believe this pilot would have been checking his trims with such zeal.
What is the basis for your disbelieving that the trim was left at full NL due to an interruption to a functional check?

And if the ATSB did its job and talked to the crew of the aircraft from the previous flight, and they swore ‘black and blue’ that the rudder trim was not left at full NL, what would your theory be then?



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Old 26th Sep 2018, 12:09
  #1059 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe we could just call a truce.

The plane crashed, and no one will ever know why.
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Old 26th Sep 2018, 12:26
  #1060 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom View Post
Maybe we could just call a truce.

The plane crashed, and no one will ever know why.
I doubt whether the families of the deceased, who are foreshadowing litigation, will call a ‘truce’ unless some very large cheques are written for them.
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