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King Air down at Essendon?

Old 28th Sep 2018, 04:25
  #1081 (permalink)  
 
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Calling it as I see it Bloggs. More than happy to be wrong. One has no idea the background of posters these days, poseurs are frequent, and is why such as nomorecatering make the decision he has,

wal·ly
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 04:40
  #1082 (permalink)  
 
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It's pretty obvious to me that he is the real thing. Note also he's talking about a 350. The "electric" trim check could well be different. Do you really think a simmer would have a multi-ring binder holding his simmer notes?

Wally=twit.

One has no idea the background of posters these days, poseurs are frequent
Noted your missives on checklists, even though by your own admission you have never used one in your life (apart from USN...).
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 05:59
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Calling it as I see it Bloggs. More than happy to be wrong. One has no idea the background of posters these days, poseurs are frequent, and is why such as nomorecatering make the decision he has,

wal·ly
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Cool story. I took the photo of the manual that's stored under the seat while I was flying the aircraft to Brisbane yesterday.

It was literally one page, as part of the initial cockpit checklist... where I run the trims through full and free movement. Why would it include the electric pitch trim? That's obviously an after start item...
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 07:01
  #1084 (permalink)  
 
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Heartfelt apologies junior. I've drunk too much of the SSG coolaid in the past. Look him up for a dose of comedy.
Why would it include the electric pitch trim? That's obviously an after start item...
Is that the exact wording from the manufacturers flight manual? Interesting the different caution warning and its contraction from the 200, though you might wonder why the mention of electric trim and autopilot at the pre flight stage in the 200.
Noted your missives on checklists, even though by your own admission you have never used one in your life
That's the way the operators for whom I flew set up their gigs, all memory, no printed lists. Not saying it was right or wrong, just the way it was, the only chap to ever do a gear up was our C & T on a solo, perhaps a printed list may have saved him, perhaps not, in three decades that was the only incident of note where a checklist argument may have been made.
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 07:21
  #1085 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Heartfelt apologies junior. I've drunk too much of the SSG coolaid in the past. Look him up for a dose of comedy.Is that the exact wording from the manufacturers flight manual? Interesting the different caution warning and its contraction from the 200, though you might wonder why the mention of electric trim and autopilot at the pre flight stage in the 200.That's the way the operators for whom I flew set up their gigs, all memory, no printed lists. Not saying it was right or wrong, just the way it was, the only chap to ever do a gear up was our C & T on a solo, perhaps a printed list may have saved him, perhaps not, in three decades that was the only incident of note where a checklist argument may have been made.
All good, that's the internet for you.

The electric pitch trim, YD, autopilot etc is all part of the after start checklist. It wouldn't have affected the rudder trim, as there is no electric rudder trim in the King Air.

Something I have been pondering is if there was potentially an unscheduled activation of the Rudder Boost system, that would also explain the aircrafts track across the ground and been puzzling. There is a Bold Face emergency checklist for that, but the PIC wouldn't have had much time to understand what was happening and carry that out.

Perhaps the trim was added to try and counter the Rudder Boost instead of the correct action via the Emergency Checklist? Far fetched, but just something I've been thinking about.
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 10:30
  #1086 (permalink)  
 
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But that would mean that the rudder trim was not set to full NL before take off and, therefore, the pilot did not overlook something that was not there to be seen.
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 11:34
  #1087 (permalink)  
 
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Would also mean the trim would have been set the other way wouldn't it?
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 11:47
  #1088 (permalink)  
 
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Would it? You appear to have type-specific expertise. Tell us.
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 12:32
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Unfortunately, this thread has slowly degenerated over recent days as pilots do what they do best.

To me (and regardless of what might have been the "actual" cause of this accident), it's been a timely wake-up call for me (& all of us I guess) to review how susceptible I am to complacency, as complacency - bread by familiarity, is a very real threat to aviation safety - particularly in the single pilot environment...

Cheers.

VH-MLE
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 12:34
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... potentially an unscheduled activation of the Rudder Boost system ...
The rudder boost has nowhere near the power to cause a result like what we have seen for ZCR.
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 12:47
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Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
The rudder boost has nowhere near the power to cause a result like what we have seen for ZCR.
Yeah that checks out. It’s just the only thing I could think of other than it “just” being the rudder trim.
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 20:16
  #1092 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
Would it? You appear to have type-specific expertise. Tell us.
it was a question.

if unexpected activation of a system causes a track to the left then I would think any trim applied to counteract it would be in the opposite direction, ie to the right. But I don’t know the system, hence the “wouldn’t it?”
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 21:58
  #1093 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FGD135 View Post
The rudder boost has nowhere near the power to cause a result like what we have seen for ZCR.

incorrect thats why its called rudder boost. Its is air activation and operation. If it didnt have the power it would not be in the aircraft as it is.
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Old 29th Sep 2018, 01:02
  #1094 (permalink)  
 
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Hi everyone,

I want to stay clear of nasty politics and deal with facts so I have a couple of things to add / ask and I will let you guys carry on.

1. Has anyone looked at the NTSB report on the Wichita, Kansas B200 crash? Its very similar.
2. Has anyone considered that the elevator trim in this incident was found fully nose up but attributed to impact forces and yet impact forces have been discounted with regard to the rudder trim. Why???
3. From personal experience I can tell you that a loose friction nut rollback will leave approximately 600 ft lbs of torque in play hence the ," producing power condition," of the left engine.
4. Systems knowledge here. If you have a failure of the instrument bleed air valve in the "off" position on say the right engine the rudder boost system would sense a lack of reference air from the right engine therefore assuming an engine failure and it would cause the rudder boost to activate and the aircraft would want to veer into the opposite engine. In this scenario the pilot could possibly wind in a heap of rudder trim to compensate or reduce power on a good engine or a combination of both. Confused????
5. A lot of conclusions have been drawn from the state of the wreckage however a lot of change, trim or power lever movements, could have been happening in the cockpit in those short seconds before impact.

I shall leave you guys to it and I look forward to the comments.

Groggy
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Old 29th Sep 2018, 01:27
  #1095 (permalink)  
 
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I’m inclined to agree with Groggy or at least not discount other possibilities anyway. It’s amazing that the wreckage has any cables/cockpit controls/trim tabs remaining in a state that you could draw conclusions from!
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Old 29th Sep 2018, 01:39
  #1096 (permalink)  
 
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For Con de Rod’s edification. A spurious rudder boost is not a big deal. It CAN be overpowered by a 90 lb weakling. It was only mandated by the FAA because test results showed B200 rudder forces when an engine failed were beyond the certification limit (can’t remember the limit, about 100 lb of force I think.)
All it does is assist the pilot by relieving some, but not all, of the foot load until the rudder is trimmed. Presumably they don’t want it relieving all of the load because it could mask the severity of engine power loss.
But yes, if the rudder boost system malfunctioned it could add to some momentary confusion, though unless accompanied by some other event or incorrect pilot action unlikely to cause the loss of control seen in this accident.
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Old 29th Sep 2018, 03:32
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Don't wind him up Mach.
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Old 29th Sep 2018, 07:36
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I have a hypothetical question.

The investigation states the rudder left trim cable was "most likely" broken during the impact sequence.

If it parted prior, say during a "full travel" of the rudder trim check, would the rudder trim become immobile at that position?
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Old 29th Sep 2018, 08:08
  #1099 (permalink)  
 
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@ Currywong: Without the Cable you cant move the trim.

I had on 3 occasions unintended Rudderboost activation. It happens from time to time. 2x in the B200 and 1x time in a B300 wich has a different System.

You Register that your Pedals are slowly moving under your foot. Rudderboost Offf ( Switch on central Pedestral) and call in for a Maintenance Slot!

@ Groggy: Agree with you. The loose friction for Guarantee has lead to several Accidents and most Probable to a lot more than we know of.

It happened to me 2 or 3 times even when iam a fanatic Check Friction Guy ( It happened first time to me, during T/O flying AN2 over a forest and for a few Seconds ( Flap Retraction) i didnt know what happened. That was an experience that stuck.) After reading the Accident Report of a UK B200 that crashed with Fatallitys, i made the set Friction part of my Checklist. But even then sometime it catches you, especially after i was retrained to let the Throttles go at V1.
In my beginning i was trained HOTAS ( Not Military).
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Old 29th Sep 2018, 09:42
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Thanks Props, can't move the tab or can't move the control?

The control will still move in the correct sense due to stops in the control run, will it not?
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