Royal QLD Aero Club in VA
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The Feds made Vet Fee Help retrospective because they got burnt in other area as well as aviation, so having to carry three months trading before you get paid is an issue for all flying organisations that rely on it including the likes of Basair which you would also have to be concerned about.
RQAC/AAA went to the wall because they burnt their cash on dreams of creating an Oxford/CAE/CTC. The CEO and hangers on consultants made endless trips to Indonesia and China and the USA, all a waste of cash and time up till the point they hit the wall. RQAC suffered badly in the hail storm of Jan 2015 and required major repairs to their buildings which the insurance paid most of I suppose , but then they burnt more cash trying to tart up the 80 year old hangar 1 which is leased from the Archerfield Airport Corp. There seemed to be a huge growth in staff when the revenue in terms of the number of students hadn't changed much.
The Chairman in 2015 and the Board of Directors essentially gave the CEO a free hand and the trajectory to the end was obvious to any keen observer.
Poor management and weak Board Corporate Governance is the real underlying reason IMHO.
Too many snouts drinking long , hard and fast from the well, and giving it no time to replenish so that inevitably it dried up.
The hard working staff and students were probably largely unaware of it, so they have unfortunately have been hit hard and are the real collateral damage here as are the many other creditors who relied on RQAC trade to make a living. Lets hope they get paid.
The Management and Board will probably skate through the VA and possible liquidation and avoid any ASIC action and will no doubt crop up elsewhere in the industry to continue the train smash.
As a small business operator at AF I have observed RQAC over many years, but the last 2 years seems to have brought changes in the way it operated that the end was inevitable.
RQAC/AAA went to the wall because they burnt their cash on dreams of creating an Oxford/CAE/CTC. The CEO and hangers on consultants made endless trips to Indonesia and China and the USA, all a waste of cash and time up till the point they hit the wall. RQAC suffered badly in the hail storm of Jan 2015 and required major repairs to their buildings which the insurance paid most of I suppose , but then they burnt more cash trying to tart up the 80 year old hangar 1 which is leased from the Archerfield Airport Corp. There seemed to be a huge growth in staff when the revenue in terms of the number of students hadn't changed much.
The Chairman in 2015 and the Board of Directors essentially gave the CEO a free hand and the trajectory to the end was obvious to any keen observer.
Poor management and weak Board Corporate Governance is the real underlying reason IMHO.
Too many snouts drinking long , hard and fast from the well, and giving it no time to replenish so that inevitably it dried up.
The hard working staff and students were probably largely unaware of it, so they have unfortunately have been hit hard and are the real collateral damage here as are the many other creditors who relied on RQAC trade to make a living. Lets hope they get paid.
The Management and Board will probably skate through the VA and possible liquidation and avoid any ASIC action and will no doubt crop up elsewhere in the industry to continue the train smash.
As a small business operator at AF I have observed RQAC over many years, but the last 2 years seems to have brought changes in the way it operated that the end was inevitable.
The Board caused this sad demise solely. The CEO is on the Board and the others drank from the same cup////poisoned it seems...
Noone has any real-time experience in running this type of business. Like aircraft, business flies by the numbers! You can't kid yourself....
Noone has any real-time experience in running this type of business. Like aircraft, business flies by the numbers! You can't kid yourself....
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Unfortunately it seems to be the way in Australia at the moment, the wage paid to the 'CEO' of Aust Post is obscene, Westpac, NAB, Com Bank just another few examples of snouts longer than an elephants, and all the 'investigative trips' overseas without any monetary return to the organisations are running rampant in Australia at the moment.
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I think that most objective assessments of the quality of those using HECS/HELP versus "self pay" (old-style) would clearly indicate the greater motivation,
Its amazing how such a massive con has continued and flourished for so long while the country is heading downhill under its debt burden... at least a reasonable proportion of the national health budget actually goes into health
in regards to the "Shortage" or the increase in the number of Pilots required in the world, no offence but GU have been peddling that sort of crud in some form or another for some time now
So i would say that government loans to train new pilots is worth while. Plus obviously over time the older captains are going to be retiring.
Last edited by KyleTheAviator; 26th Mar 2016 at 23:25.
Kyle are you sure we get repaid these loans, I'm told if you go overseas for some years the loan is cancelled. Would think a heap of these students will do just that chasing the 28,000 jobs which wont be here in Aus There has always been a pilot shortage during my 40 years in av but I'm yet to see it
By the way from where I sit Chance has it summed up, I happened to be at RQ recently and was amazed at how many admin staff there seemed to be
By the way from where I sit Chance has it summed up, I happened to be at RQ recently and was amazed at how many admin staff there seemed to be
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Run into ground
RQAC gone is a sad day indeed. Ex employee due to bad management and attitude of NZ CEO. Yes yet again another Australian icon run into the ground by mismanagement and a kiwi. The ex board member the day he became chief. Sadly he was on the board in the first place. Feel for those with no Job and those out of pocket. Hopefully someone takes over with a clue and fires all the management friends. Yes the same people who used this organisation as their personal taxi and frequent flyer points maker. Should be locked up but won't will go on for being got at trying to make it work. Pfft should be laws stopping this kind of thing.
You do realise the FEE HELP debt has to be 100% repaid, with 20% on top right? And its indexed to inflation, so the government actually make money from this loan...
Maybe we should go back to the Flying Scholarships where you had to have made a personal investment into your future career in aviation by getting your PPL before applying for a scholarship.
At least it showed that an applicant had some commitment.
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Are we forgetting University used to be FREE in Australia for the older generation? But what now the younger generation are unmotivated bludgers for getting in debt tens of thousands of dollars to earn an education? Sorry, I dont buy such hypocrisy.
You do realise the FEE HELP debt has to be 100% repaid, with 20% on top right? And its indexed to inflation, so the government actually make money from this loan...
It does make sense, doesn't it? Why pay for your training when you can work for the poverty-line wages you've created and not have to repay, while the guy who paid gets the same wage. But, you say, there's that slim chance you get lucky and get the 1 in 1000 decent paying job, or a trip up the ladder ... great - that's the real incentive, if you score an ultra-rare well-paying job, you can afford to pay pack the HELP. Nice bit of hedging!
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Unfortunately RQ was raped long ago and used like a symbiotic host, with all assets rebranded.... Passed off as just a club. New students were convinced they were better off going 'Full time' through an Academy sic, robbing RQ of its successful stream of students and income. All eggs were put in one basket and it went down hill from there. Extremely sad. Hopefully there will be enough left over to have a modest fleet, a few good instructors and it can get back to being ROYAL QUEENSLAND AERO CLUB.
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I didn't have any money to learn to fly and parents wouldn't pay so I got something called a job, and learnt to fly as I earnt. Took 5 years but so what still worked out. And no I wasn't handed a job it was an unskilled factory job that paid pretty crap casual salary. And I agree RQ put all their eggs in one basket called AAA and pretty much crippled the traditional member base. They were set up to fail years and years ago.
First off Kyle, Universities were free from a period of 1974 to 1989, let's not make it sound like it's always been free before the current generation in University now. Second of all, we're talking about Aviation Training here which has never been free except in the case of Scholarships or perhaps the Military if you want to look at it that way.
As I tried to point out, those Forecasts are extremely misleading and simply saying "Look, Boeing and/or Airbus say we're going to need 28,000 new Pilots in x years!" is naive to the extreme but don't take that as a personal sledge, it's been a line peddled for a very long time by many and sundry as a lot of the older blokes and sheilas here will gladly tell you and there have been few situations where it has actually come true and Pilots have simply walked in the door and gotten jobs.
You need to understand that a lot of these positions are in Europe and China primarily, which means they will be snapped up by those with the relevant Passports, something never gone into much detail when it comes to selling flight training to people. In Europe they do their training and almost always finish with a Jet endorsement such as a 737 or 320 and then go straight to a right hand seat in a lot of cases and usually have to pay their way at exorbitant costs to be there. The US is not far behind in these practices and will also account for a large slice of these positions. The number of these positions that will be filled by Australian Pilots I'd say will be a small slice.
Let us also not forget that it is Boeing and Airbus who keep putting out these "Forecasts" which are oft to change, they don't really care about the impacts, they just want to put out the idea that Pilots are needed so get people moving through the meat grinders ready to fill the seats they put together, a shortage would hurt them badly as then Airlines will be less likely to purchase Aircraft if they fear there aren't enough Crew to fill them, it's marketing for them. Also let us not forget that these numbers get higher due to people dropping out of the industry and needing to be replaced and you then need to question why they are dropping out of the industry, it's not usually because they loved it so much they couldn't bare it anymore!!
And don't go fooling yourself into thinking the Government make money from these "Loans" as others have mentioned the country is currently Billions of dollars in debt due to these loans, the money is made by encouraging innovation in the country and thusly hopefully increasing the number of jobs and people employed to raise more taxes, not in the highly bloated University systems and the money paid back through it. The 20% is also to cover not just the loan you've and others have taken out but also to cover for those who don't end up paying back their loans.
All in all, it is far more complicated than it all appears on the surface and Aviation is an industry that has a long and proud history of selling people on dreams and whispers.
As I tried to point out, those Forecasts are extremely misleading and simply saying "Look, Boeing and/or Airbus say we're going to need 28,000 new Pilots in x years!" is naive to the extreme but don't take that as a personal sledge, it's been a line peddled for a very long time by many and sundry as a lot of the older blokes and sheilas here will gladly tell you and there have been few situations where it has actually come true and Pilots have simply walked in the door and gotten jobs.
You need to understand that a lot of these positions are in Europe and China primarily, which means they will be snapped up by those with the relevant Passports, something never gone into much detail when it comes to selling flight training to people. In Europe they do their training and almost always finish with a Jet endorsement such as a 737 or 320 and then go straight to a right hand seat in a lot of cases and usually have to pay their way at exorbitant costs to be there. The US is not far behind in these practices and will also account for a large slice of these positions. The number of these positions that will be filled by Australian Pilots I'd say will be a small slice.
Let us also not forget that it is Boeing and Airbus who keep putting out these "Forecasts" which are oft to change, they don't really care about the impacts, they just want to put out the idea that Pilots are needed so get people moving through the meat grinders ready to fill the seats they put together, a shortage would hurt them badly as then Airlines will be less likely to purchase Aircraft if they fear there aren't enough Crew to fill them, it's marketing for them. Also let us not forget that these numbers get higher due to people dropping out of the industry and needing to be replaced and you then need to question why they are dropping out of the industry, it's not usually because they loved it so much they couldn't bare it anymore!!
And don't go fooling yourself into thinking the Government make money from these "Loans" as others have mentioned the country is currently Billions of dollars in debt due to these loans, the money is made by encouraging innovation in the country and thusly hopefully increasing the number of jobs and people employed to raise more taxes, not in the highly bloated University systems and the money paid back through it. The 20% is also to cover not just the loan you've and others have taken out but also to cover for those who don't end up paying back their loans.
All in all, it is far more complicated than it all appears on the surface and Aviation is an industry that has a long and proud history of selling people on dreams and whispers.
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chance said:
Maybe, maybe not but that's not for us to decide. However, it can't be denied that if mismanagement indeed went on, it was only enabled by the grossly disproportionate allocation of VET-FEE HELP loans to aviation students. Any mismanagement would have been a sequela of how easy the government made it to access the seemingly unlimited pool of loans. It was the VET-FEE HELP scheme that gave birth to these problems.
KyleTheAviator said:
No, the Government loses a lot of money from the current FEE HELP system.
No, the system is not designed to make the Government money; an educated population is their return.
No, a graduate does not have to repay their loan if they never get a job with their 150hr CPL or do get a job but never make more than $54,869 (for 2016-17 FY)... many other circumstances prevent people repaying their loans. This is not your typically secured personal loan or mortgage from a big bank. The Grattan Institute estimates 40% of VET-FEE HELP loans across all sectors will never be repaid.
KyleTheAviator said:
Please don't imply that only "rich kids" succeed in aviation; that's tempocentric rubbish. Why are people always surprised by the amount of hard work, patience and sacrifice others are willing to put into achieving their goals, without handouts from anyone else??
Poor management and weak Board Corporate Governance is the real underlying reason IMHO.
KyleTheAviator said:
You do realise the FEE HELP debt has to be 100% repaid, with 20% on top right? And its indexed to inflation, so the government actually make money from this loan...
No, the system is not designed to make the Government money; an educated population is their return.
No, a graduate does not have to repay their loan if they never get a job with their 150hr CPL or do get a job but never make more than $54,869 (for 2016-17 FY)... many other circumstances prevent people repaying their loans. This is not your typically secured personal loan or mortgage from a big bank. The Grattan Institute estimates 40% of VET-FEE HELP loans across all sectors will never be repaid.
KyleTheAviator said:
not just a few rich kids that can afford flight school.
Last edited by Cuban Eight; 27th Mar 2016 at 18:40.
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Let us also not forget that it is Boeing and Airbus who keep putting out these "Forecasts" which are oft to change, they don't really care about the impacts, they just want to put out the idea that Pilots are needed so get people moving through the meat grinders ready to fill the seats they put together, a shortage would hurt them badly as then Airlines will be less likely to purchase Aircraft if they fear there aren't enough Crew to fill them, it's marketing for them. Also let us not forget that these numbers get higher due to people dropping out of the industry and needing to be replaced and you then need to question why they are dropping out of the industry, it's not usually because they loved it so much they couldn't bare it anymore!!
You've nailed it.
Make sure there's a 10,000 surplus of trained commercial pilots so Airlines can pay rubbish money with even worse conditions, yet still fill the pilot seats, ....the airlines will buy more jets.
Indeed, I worked four jobs simultaneously at one point to pay for my flying plus being awarded the Amy Johnson scholarship which paid for about 10% of it; it took five years working in the industry to earn it back but I didn't owe anyone anything nor did I ever expect any handouts. I'd already worked and paid my own way through uni once to get a degree and then a career path good enough to pay for the flying. This was a time and place where you needed 700 hours for a CPL and wait nearly two years then beat many others for a place on a CPL course by which time only the most motivated were still standing.
Then a certain event we can't mention led to a number of Australian pilots coming over to compete for the jobs making it even harder.
Hardly a rich kid, only knew one of our "gang" whose daddy bought her a brand new Archer to build her hours in, then she got married and gave it all up...the rest of us who were working our butts off in second and third jobs to pay for it are still flying 25 years later.
Then a certain event we can't mention led to a number of Australian pilots coming over to compete for the jobs making it even harder.
Hardly a rich kid, only knew one of our "gang" whose daddy bought her a brand new Archer to build her hours in, then she got married and gave it all up...the rest of us who were working our butts off in second and third jobs to pay for it are still flying 25 years later.
The current CEO has not been on the board since last year.
But what was the Board doing? Operated without a proper CFO until recently too....it is [was] after-all a business not a social club..
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As a fromer member of RQAC in it heyday it was a great meeting place for the whole of Archerfield. Private Pilots were enthusiastic, the bar was packed and there were lots of flyaways and competitions etc. However as Dick Smith has pointed out the aerodromes of Australia are being denuded of GA. There does not seem to be , with a couple of exceptions such as RACWA the interest in private flying. It become rather expensive and the CASA regulator approach is strangling the industry under the guise of "safety". The pollies won't tackle any issue if safety is thrown back in your face. A bit like doctors "Shroud Waving" at any attempt to reform the health industry.
Its just become too complicated for many to fly privately, too many changes to keep up with - hence the growth in RAAus.
RQAC suffered from a lack of private flying and were left with little choice but to go don the full-time cadet pathway with the Airline Academy. In fact a couple of their clients such as Qantas, China Airlines and Boeing who did the MPL beta trial with the club insisted on not dealing with an aero club and hence the balance tipped towards AAA - thought it did not look professional enough I have heard. Likewise with GU.
What happens next is that you loose control of your own business. These big airline and uni customers end up telling you how to run your business and the trouble is they know SFA about GA.
Operating a business out of somewhere like Archerfield where the rents and landing fees are a major factor to be borne in the hourly rate of flying means that AF and the likes cannot compete in the private flying market with say Redcliffe or Caloundra where the councils charge more modest rent that the private owners of AF don't and there are no landing fees.
The private pilots and the pay as you earn to fund your CPL pilots are the heart and soul of an aero club.
The cadets from airlines and unis have no allegiance or loyalty to an aero club. You will probably never clap eyes on them again when they leave.
It was RQACs problem and one for lots of flying schools across the land.
That and the regulator are the big strategic problems facing GA and the leadership of CASA and ASA show no insight into the problem and seem trapped by their own paradigm and their RAAF backgrounds which are about as removed from GA as you can get.
If we could only undo the privatisation of airports and reform CASA there is a glimmer of hope. Unfortunately neither is remotely likely. Lets hope the likes of operators in non former secondary airports keep going so that there is somewhere for us to fly and enjoy it at a reasonable price.
Its just become too complicated for many to fly privately, too many changes to keep up with - hence the growth in RAAus.
RQAC suffered from a lack of private flying and were left with little choice but to go don the full-time cadet pathway with the Airline Academy. In fact a couple of their clients such as Qantas, China Airlines and Boeing who did the MPL beta trial with the club insisted on not dealing with an aero club and hence the balance tipped towards AAA - thought it did not look professional enough I have heard. Likewise with GU.
What happens next is that you loose control of your own business. These big airline and uni customers end up telling you how to run your business and the trouble is they know SFA about GA.
Operating a business out of somewhere like Archerfield where the rents and landing fees are a major factor to be borne in the hourly rate of flying means that AF and the likes cannot compete in the private flying market with say Redcliffe or Caloundra where the councils charge more modest rent that the private owners of AF don't and there are no landing fees.
The private pilots and the pay as you earn to fund your CPL pilots are the heart and soul of an aero club.
The cadets from airlines and unis have no allegiance or loyalty to an aero club. You will probably never clap eyes on them again when they leave.
It was RQACs problem and one for lots of flying schools across the land.
That and the regulator are the big strategic problems facing GA and the leadership of CASA and ASA show no insight into the problem and seem trapped by their own paradigm and their RAAF backgrounds which are about as removed from GA as you can get.
If we could only undo the privatisation of airports and reform CASA there is a glimmer of hope. Unfortunately neither is remotely likely. Lets hope the likes of operators in non former secondary airports keep going so that there is somewhere for us to fly and enjoy it at a reasonable price.