Sir Angus Houston Supports Government Policy
Everyone in industry knows that all of the FIFO passenger jets are not "controlled every inch to the ground", they leave controlled airspace well before landing in many cases. In a lot of cases are not controlled for departure.
all passenger aircraft in controlled air space were "controlled every inch to the ground"
Last edited by CaptainMidnight; 27th Jun 2015 at 01:30.
For the illiterates
In response to Mr Smith's critique of safety in the system, Sir Angus said all passenger aircraft in controlled air space were "controlled every inch to the ground".
Nowhere does he say, or even infer, that aircraft operate through controlled airspace at all times.
So what if a Jet operates OCTA? If there was a legit safety concern, professional pilots would be lodging floods of SMS reports and if ignored by the company they would be taking it to the Union or the media.
I spent this morning at the kid's soccer games answering the concerns of other parents who have heard Dick's carry-on on through the media. They are left with the clear impression that all uncontrolled airports are unsafe; that pilots are uncontrolled cowboys and no more in control of the aircraft than the punters down the back; that operations at CTAFs/MTAFs/MBZs/WTF they are simply a chaotic free-for-all.
Yet again, Dick's histrionics and show-pony carry-on is simply making the general public think that ALL aviation is HUGELY unsafe.
Yet again, Dick is mounting his hobby horse and causing more collateral damage to the rest of us.
Let us remember that the majority of mid-air collisions in Australia have occurred at BK and YMMB, with a tower in operation.
Cue Hamilton, Murphie and Pike posting here about what a great Australian Dick is (I don't dispute it) what a great pilot he is (no opinion) and how I have tall poppy syndrome and/or a chip on my shoulder (perhaps).
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 27th Jun 2015 at 03:59.
Originally Posted by swh
I used to get traffic on other IFR aircraft well before ADSB, and even before alphabet airspace, nothing has changed.
IFR traffic is ABC, a PC12, departed Smithville time 25, climbing FL150, estimates ANGUS at time 47
IFR traffic is ABC, a PC12 just departed Smithville, ten miles in your eleven o'clock, opposite direction, passing six thousand eight hundred
Like someone said earlier in the thread, ADS-B is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It'll be even better once everyone has it.
Originally Posted by Some Other Drongo
Nowhere does he say, or even infer, that aircraft operate through controlled airspace at all times.
Not the NAS brochure he is trying to sell ?
Originally Posted by Some Drongo
The FIFOs leave controlled airspace on descent and hence are not controlled all the way to the ground , and similarly at AVV after the TWR closes the controlled airspace stops @ 700AGL.
It was a misleading comment that the public will think exactly what he said "controlled every inch to the ground", they would not know that many aircraft have to leave controlled airpsace, or never even enter controlled airspace.
The general public would not know where controlled airpsace is.
Which gives you a better idea of where to look to find the other aeroplane?
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From my perspective, Mr Higgins has been fed and he sounds like a stooge. I know not from where he has been fed, but my judgement is that this is 'sponsored' editorializing. As follows and my bolding:
Where has Mr Higgins gained the experience and authority to describe our system as 'piecemeal.' No aviation credibility, no history. Had Mr Higgins been more careful with language, he would have said something like....Mr Smith then described the Australian system as 'piecemeal.' Credible journalism, young fella - you are not qualified to editorialize on matters aviation.
Frank, you totally disappoint. Such a cheap, cheap shot at the altar of your messiah:
I happened to have worked with both gentlemen - yes gentlemen - and the idea of an outstanding bill would be anathema to both. Sick, crass, and dirty, Frank. You are really now down in the gutter.
As regards NAS, and Houston's commitment, source a copy of the original NAS handbook. Angus Houston committed with a couple of caveats and he was right upfront and totally transparent. Air Force would support reform as long as safety and operational capability were not compromised. And the government was well aware.
The suggestion that Houston somehow undermined the efforts of the exalted one is out there where I got abducted by aliens.
Mr Smith has called for an extension of controlled airspace along US lines, where all commercial aircraft are guided by air traffic controllers, compared Australia’s piecemeal system, where generally below 8500 feet, pilots are left to their own devices.
Frank, you totally disappoint. Such a cheap, cheap shot at the altar of your messiah:
Rumor has it that Houston and Skidmore have outstanding mess bills and the taxpayer is funding their debts.
As regards NAS, and Houston's commitment, source a copy of the original NAS handbook. Angus Houston committed with a couple of caveats and he was right upfront and totally transparent. Air Force would support reform as long as safety and operational capability were not compromised. And the government was well aware.
The suggestion that Houston somehow undermined the efforts of the exalted one is out there where I got abducted by aliens.
SWH, are you serious?
Yes they are. A>C>D 0r A>E>C or A>E>D. Read my lips. Controlled Airspace ALL THE WAY TO THE GROUND.
As for your
The very next paragraph in that article said this:
As for misleading comments, what about the weeks of tripe that has been printed by Mr Higgins? Not one word that almost every jet airport in the country has an automatic weather radio system, Directed Traffic in our Class F is far safer than the implied Septic Tank G airspace to "hopefully avoid a mid-air crash" and giving Joe Bloggs the baggage-chucker a mic with no training in traffic delivery is going to solve all the (non-existent) problems at uncontrolled airports. Keep posting; your credibility reduces every time.
Originally Posted by swh
The original comment that I made is true, passenger aircraft in controlled airspace are not controlled all the way to the ground in Australia.
As for your
It was a misleading comment that the public will think exactly what he said "controlled every inch to the ground"
In relation to lower classification airspace, he said "air traffic control provides pilots of instrument flight rules (IFR) aircraft with known traffic information in relation to other IFR aircraft".
Originally Posted by another drongo
Yes they are. A>C>D 0r A>E>C or A>E>D. Read my lips. Controlled Airspace ALL THE WAY TO THE GROUND.
"all passenger aircraft in controlled air space were "controlled every inch to the ground"
Everyone in the industry except Sir A seems to know a passenger jet from Perth to Newman has to leave controlled airspace.
They are a passenger jet, they are in controlled airspace from leaving Perth to top of descent, and then exit controlled airspace on descent well before the ground. It is a false statement designed to mislead the public to think there is controlled airspace all the way to the ground for every passenger jet.
Originally Posted by another drongo
Not one word that almost every jet airport in the country has an automatic weather radio system
I used to be able to ring the BOM on the sat phone soon after departure on a MED 1, get them issue a forecast, and then request it from ASA, all legal. No longer possible.
Thread Starter
Clive Wilson at lord howe has been told by CASA that he must not use his existing Unicom to give known traffic or give any worthwhile WX information.
That was the prime reason that his frequency was removed from ERSA by AsA .
The two AWIS units at Lord Howe don't give the type of information you need to do safe landing in some WX conditions.
Clive gave a fantastic Unicom service for over 30 years.i would reckon he has probably saved a few lives.
If we harmonised with the non prescriptive Unicom guidelines of the USA and Canada Clive would be able to continue improving safety at this sometimes risky airport.
That was the prime reason that his frequency was removed from ERSA by AsA .
The two AWIS units at Lord Howe don't give the type of information you need to do safe landing in some WX conditions.
Clive gave a fantastic Unicom service for over 30 years.i would reckon he has probably saved a few lives.
If we harmonised with the non prescriptive Unicom guidelines of the USA and Canada Clive would be able to continue improving safety at this sometimes risky airport.
Originally Posted by SWH
No, that is a misleading lie, eg a schedule Qantas RPT passenger jet from Perth to Newman does not meet the following statement
"all passenger aircraft in controlled air space were "controlled every inch to the ground"
Everyone in the industry except Sir A seems to know a passenger jet from Perth to Newman has to leave controlled airspace.
"all passenger aircraft in controlled air space were "controlled every inch to the ground"
Everyone in the industry except Sir A seems to know a passenger jet from Perth to Newman has to leave controlled airspace.
That maybe the case, but METARs are not forecasts. CASA requires pilots to use forecast, which are few and far between now for night time away from the capital cities. Ask ASA for a forecast for a regional airport at night, not available. Ask the BOM, not available, have to ask ASA.
I used to be able to ring the BOM on the sat phone soon after departure on a MED 1, get them issue a forecast, and then request it from ASA, all legal. No longer possible.
I used to be able to ring the BOM on the sat phone soon after departure on a MED 1, get them issue a forecast, and then request it from ASA, all legal. No longer possible.
As for lack of TAFs at O-dark hundred, if you want them, you pay. Simple as that.
Originally Posted by SWH
If you have flown IFR, you would understand with or without ADSB, pilots cannot see through cloud. Traffic information is just that, information, there is no control
Originally Posted by same ole drongo
Sir Angus never said a jet from Perth to Newman remained in Controlled Airspace. Pull your head in.
To me, the word all, would mean every, including a schedule RPT flight to Newman (or insert the name of any regional town).
Originally Posted by same ole drongo
As for lack of TAFs at O-dark hundred, if you want them, you pay. Simple as that.
Elitist city people thinking country people deserve second class services.
Originally Posted by same ole drongo
Encountered a VFR last week, Broome to Port Hedland, crossing our track. Tower still closed. Brisbane Centre gave us a traffic alert on the VFR, virtually opposite direction, below, climbing and then levelling at 4800ft. I'll give you one guess how ATC saw him...
Back in the good ole days, VFR traffic were allowed to talk on the radio, and the amount of airspace each sector had was smaller. "Rationalization" into two ATC centers and "productivity" has made CASA tell VFR traffic to stop talking on the radio.
None of that helps a IFR aircraft in cloud.
Imagine if the VFR aircraft Capn Bloggs encountered between Broome and Port Hedland had also been monitoring Area frequency? Perhaps he/she could have replied to Brisbane Centre that Capn Bloggs was indeed sighted and briefly convey his/her intent? A pretty good outcome, I'd think.
But Dick (within his ADSB crusade) doesn't want VFRs briefly talking to Centre lest the heavy metal starts falling out of the sky...
But Dick (within his ADSB crusade) doesn't want VFRs briefly talking to Centre lest the heavy metal starts falling out of the sky...
Last edited by gerry111; 27th Jun 2015 at 14:48.
Moderator
Why is it that a forum to debate matters of importance to all professional pilots, always descend into a repetitious serious of ludicrous personal attacks and bitchy comments more appropriate to a school yard full of pre-pubescent kids??
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Play the ball, not the man. Or the Mod’s patience!!!
If you find you can not access this thread – or any other PPRuNe thread – give thanks you were only thread banned and not forum or site banned.
Sir Angus has been a "yes man" for all of his career. I'm not surprised that he strictly follows the "party" line to the last full-stop..
Some of you blokes really are laying it on a bit thick.
Originally Posted by SWH
I am sorry which aircraft was being referred to then with "all passenger aircraft in controlled air space were "controlled every inch to the ground"
To me, the word all, would mean every, including a schedule RPT flight to Newman (or insert the name of any regional town).
To me, the word all, would mean every, including a schedule RPT flight to Newman (or insert the name of any regional town).
Originally Posted by SWH
TWR still closed, controlled all the way to the ground.
Unicom ...or not
Interestingly there was an article in a recent Oz where the guy who used to work for CAsA and wrote the rules re CAGROs...NOW admits that he was wrong to limit the job to just retired ex ATC folk, and as in the US it should be used.
Rocket science it aint !!..its just an 'advisory' and pilots will use it as they will
Since it is something done, useful and deemed a safety enhancement in the US of A...for goodness sake why not here.?
As for for Houston's trite comment ' we want our firies to respond, not be on the radio' .... does it really make any difference if the firies are drying hoses, servicing the truck, playing volley ball or cards ...or monitoring a radio...because in the event of a call out they drop whatever they are doing and bolt for it.
This issue demonstrates that hidebound bureaucazy rules, the control freaks
will continue to call the shots because they think they know better and as usual enhanced safety comes a poor last
Rocket science it aint !!..its just an 'advisory' and pilots will use it as they will
Since it is something done, useful and deemed a safety enhancement in the US of A...for goodness sake why not here.?
As for for Houston's trite comment ' we want our firies to respond, not be on the radio' .... does it really make any difference if the firies are drying hoses, servicing the truck, playing volley ball or cards ...or monitoring a radio...because in the event of a call out they drop whatever they are doing and bolt for it.
This issue demonstrates that hidebound bureaucazy rules, the control freaks
will continue to call the shots because they think they know better and as usual enhanced safety comes a poor last
A flight to Newman is not in controlled airspace the whole way, so it is not "controlled all the way to the ground". Sir Angus said as much in his "In relation to lower classification airspace..." quote a few posts back.
What do you think Joe Public will think the " lower classification airspace" would mean if they are presented with the letters A, B, C, D, E, F, G ? They have no idea of what "In relation to lower classification airspace..." means, is A better than B, is C better than D, is G better than H ? The comments mislead the public.
If you look back at my posts I have been critical also of Dick Smith with his claims of how much it costs to get ADSB installing in an aircraft ($60,000 for a G1000 C172). I dont believe that side of the debate has been honest with the public either. I have posted that time and time again on threads relating to that. My aircraft cost under $5000 to get ADSB installed, the main cost was sending the GPS back to Garmin for a WAAS upgrade. There are boxes now on the market which are transponder and WAAS GPS in one package that would fit a normal KT76 slot, for under $5000.
Its not that expensive, but expensive enough after installation when you do a cost benefit analysis. The costs savings and benefits for the private, charter, and smaller RPT operators has been well overstated. I get zero operational improvement by having ADSB installed, I see zero cost savings. The people gaining all of the savings with ADSB are the big airlines and ASA, an in general all the newer jets you see have no additional equipment needed, zero cost, all gain with flex routing.
What is wrong with calling people out on both sides of the debate for overstating their relative positions, and put it in terms of what it is really costing or savings to the general public, in terms the general public will understand.
Maybe its just me, but does anyone else get the vibe that some people hate Sir Angus because he is of a military background?
Looking at his career objectively I can see a lot of evidence that would indicate he wasn't just a yes man...
Looking at his career objectively I can see a lot of evidence that would indicate he wasn't just a yes man...
Joe Public walking onto an RPT aircraft at a capital city for a regional area reading that line will think they are in controlled airspace all the way.
So the argument is just going around in circles.
In addition, both articles rely on a journalist interpreting what someone has said, without - dare I say it - NFI of the subject matter.
The people gaining all of the savings with ADSB are the big airlines
Granted, private and local charters in Class G see less benefit.
Strangely enough, I recall exactly the same grumbling when transponders became mandatory for operations in CTA
