Direct operating costs of a C172 or PA28?
Thread Starter
Direct operating costs of a C172 or PA28?
Hi all,
Looking for a few approximate figures on owning and privately operating a VFR C172 or PA28 (dry operating costs).
Assuming that the aircraft is valued at $50,000, not under finance and has no major maintenance forcasted, eg SIDs or an engine overhaul. The aircraft won't be put on a line.
I am really looking at insurance and maintenance costs, incorporating high dollar items like forecasting for a new engine etc.
I already know what my local aerodrome owner charges for parking and landing.
Any general ball park figures would be greatly appreciated.
Looking for a few approximate figures on owning and privately operating a VFR C172 or PA28 (dry operating costs).
Assuming that the aircraft is valued at $50,000, not under finance and has no major maintenance forcasted, eg SIDs or an engine overhaul. The aircraft won't be put on a line.
I am really looking at insurance and maintenance costs, incorporating high dollar items like forecasting for a new engine etc.
I already know what my local aerodrome owner charges for parking and landing.
Any general ball park figures would be greatly appreciated.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Melbourne
Age: 72
Posts: 774
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Insurance, just ring QBE or a broker. The same sort of thing you would do getting house or car insurance.
Maintenance, how long is a piece of string? Depends on where you go. Leave it with the LAME or can you assist?
Engine, replace or go on condition and again who does the work.
Maintenance, how long is a piece of string? Depends on where you go. Leave it with the LAME or can you assist?
Engine, replace or go on condition and again who does the work.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: inner suburbia
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Depends on what you want to do,
ie. do you intend to keep the aircraft indefinitely, or do you intend to sell it in 'x' years time.
Engine : about AUD45k / 2k hours.
Propellor : about 15k / 2k'ish hours.
Insurance : 3K'ish annually, depending on the cover, excess and extras.
100 hourly/Annual inspection : 2k'ish + whatever the remedial actions cost.
Radios and Instruments : $ yeouch.
ie. do you intend to keep the aircraft indefinitely, or do you intend to sell it in 'x' years time.
Engine : about AUD45k / 2k hours.
Propellor : about 15k / 2k'ish hours.
Insurance : 3K'ish annually, depending on the cover, excess and extras.
100 hourly/Annual inspection : 2k'ish + whatever the remedial actions cost.
Radios and Instruments : $ yeouch.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Goolwa
Age: 59
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What model C172 or PA28?
I have a 172M with the O320-E2D, direct running costs (for Private flying) are:
Insurance: $1400 per year (add some more for on line/flying school)
Engine: Rebuild after 2000 hours - between $20K-$25K + removal/fitting
Prop: Overhaul $1000, new $4K-$5K including fitting
Annual/100Hourly: anywhere from $500 (owner assisted) to $1K-$2K for a big one (never had one over $1500 so far - 80% have been less than $700).
Instrument check: $300 (small) to $600 (big) for IFR/NVFR
Get the STC for MOGAS and the wet hourly rate will be lower than other aircraft thus ensuring that your aircraft gets used more often - an aircraft used in a school should be getting at least 400 hours per year to make it beneficial.
I have a 172M with the O320-E2D, direct running costs (for Private flying) are:
Insurance: $1400 per year (add some more for on line/flying school)
Engine: Rebuild after 2000 hours - between $20K-$25K + removal/fitting
Prop: Overhaul $1000, new $4K-$5K including fitting
Annual/100Hourly: anywhere from $500 (owner assisted) to $1K-$2K for a big one (never had one over $1500 so far - 80% have been less than $700).
Instrument check: $300 (small) to $600 (big) for IFR/NVFR
Get the STC for MOGAS and the wet hourly rate will be lower than other aircraft thus ensuring that your aircraft gets used more often - an aircraft used in a school should be getting at least 400 hours per year to make it beneficial.
Engine: Rebuild after 2000 hours - between $20K-$25K + removal/fitting
Engine : about AUD45k / 2k hours.
Engine : about AUD45k / 2k hours.
7700,
I hope he didn't pay it, but took it to Fair Trading, if it was in NSW, or the equivalent in any other state.
For the number of hours of labor that represents, that is a ripoff.
Tootle pip!!
I hope he didn't pay it, but took it to Fair Trading, if it was in NSW, or the equivalent in any other state.
For the number of hours of labor that represents, that is a ripoff.
Tootle pip!!
I have seen many very presentable 172 and PA28 aircraft go in for a 100 hrly/annual with their new owner and come out $12,000 later. They looked nice on the outside but a good look see turns up corrosion, cracked ribs, wingbolts, control cables etc etc. Then the cash register starts ringing.
A reputable chief engineer told me for a new aircraft that is always hangared, budget $2000 per annual for the first 5 annuals, providing you don't have to replace the control cables at 400hrs like many have had (C172).
A reputable chief engineer told me for a new aircraft that is always hangared, budget $2000 per annual for the first 5 annuals, providing you don't have to replace the control cables at 400hrs like many have had (C172).
Thread Starter
Thanks for replying everyone.
I come from a GA engineering background and converted to a pilot so I've got a fair idea what I'm getting myself into. I'm not licenced however I have a few good mates who are. I'll probably end up doing the periodic inspections and maintenance myself under the strict supervision of a LAME - I'm a qualified GA AME, albeit the last time I put a spanner on an aeroplane was about 20 years ago.
I come from a GA engineering background and converted to a pilot so I've got a fair idea what I'm getting myself into. I'm not licenced however I have a few good mates who are. I'll probably end up doing the periodic inspections and maintenance myself under the strict supervision of a LAME - I'm a qualified GA AME, albeit the last time I put a spanner on an aeroplane was about 20 years ago.
Duck,
Don't even think about a C-172 unless the SID has been completed, and still have an independent LAME do a very thorough pre-buy --- it will be the best $1000 or so you ever spent -- particularly if it means walking away from a well presented dog --- there are plenty about.
There may be no SID for Piper, that doesn't mean they don't corrode and crack, again a very thorough pre-buy is essential.
Of course it may not mean walking away, even with work to do, if you astutely use the pre-buy report to negotiated.
On any pre-buy, if you don't find corrosion, you haven't looked hard enough.
As an example, I have seen a asking price of $52,000 for a quite presentable PA28-180 bargained down to $38,000 because of what was found during the pre-buy.
Tootle pip!!
Don't even think about a C-172 unless the SID has been completed, and still have an independent LAME do a very thorough pre-buy --- it will be the best $1000 or so you ever spent -- particularly if it means walking away from a well presented dog --- there are plenty about.
There may be no SID for Piper, that doesn't mean they don't corrode and crack, again a very thorough pre-buy is essential.
Of course it may not mean walking away, even with work to do, if you astutely use the pre-buy report to negotiated.
On any pre-buy, if you don't find corrosion, you haven't looked hard enough.
As an example, I have seen a asking price of $52,000 for a quite presentable PA28-180 bargained down to $38,000 because of what was found during the pre-buy.
Tootle pip!!
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Edge of nowhere
Age: 53
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have a PA28-140. Ins is about $2600 pa, last 3 annuals have been 4k 3.5k 2.5k.
Fuel burn is 32lts hr average. Oil is SFA.
Keeping OH happy with me having it costs a new horse or saddle etc each year at about 5k :-)
Fuel burn is 32lts hr average. Oil is SFA.
Keeping OH happy with me having it costs a new horse or saddle etc each year at about 5k :-)
Regardless of how many hours I fly the 172 a year, the first one always costs me around $5.5k's (insurance/maintenance and incidentals). After that its only $60 an hour or thereabouts for the fuel. I reckon for a nice clean, low time, well maintained 172N, that's a pretty good deal.
Someone above suggested that $45k for an engine change over was a bit outlandish. I got no change out $43k, so that figure was actually pretty close to the mark. Mind you, it just wasn't an engine overhaul. Everything ahead of the firewall was renewed. Mounts, baffles, exhaust system, coolers, prop etc..
The poor old 172 usually cops a bucketful for being uninteresting, uninspiring, a poor performer (ok, fair cop - when it's 42°C it won't pull the skin off a rice custard), dull to fly and the epitome of the Wichita spam can.
From my point of view as an owner/operator, it is THE classic GA machine. Easy to fly, easy to maintain and easy on the pocket.
Someone above suggested that $45k for an engine change over was a bit outlandish. I got no change out $43k, so that figure was actually pretty close to the mark. Mind you, it just wasn't an engine overhaul. Everything ahead of the firewall was renewed. Mounts, baffles, exhaust system, coolers, prop etc..
The poor old 172 usually cops a bucketful for being uninteresting, uninspiring, a poor performer (ok, fair cop - when it's 42°C it won't pull the skin off a rice custard), dull to fly and the epitome of the Wichita spam can.
From my point of view as an owner/operator, it is THE classic GA machine. Easy to fly, easy to maintain and easy on the pocket.
Last edited by gassed budgie; 22nd May 2015 at 14:16. Reason: Can't spell for shit.
Duck,
Re my Cessna SID remarks, I was flicking through the Trader, and notices a non-SIDs and cable AD C-172, with allegedly very good engine and prop times to run, for $16,500 -- I think that represents what the present owners estimate the SIDs plus cables is going to cost, versus any kind of market value.
In short, it is being advertised for scrap value, the engine and prop are probably worth around $10-12,000.
Tootle pip!!
Re my Cessna SID remarks, I was flicking through the Trader, and notices a non-SIDs and cable AD C-172, with allegedly very good engine and prop times to run, for $16,500 -- I think that represents what the present owners estimate the SIDs plus cables is going to cost, versus any kind of market value.
In short, it is being advertised for scrap value, the engine and prop are probably worth around $10-12,000.
Tootle pip!!
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: dans un cercle dont le centre est eveywhere et circumfernce n'est nulle part
Posts: 2,606
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A Maintenance Release cannot be relied upon as a guide to serviceability.
I know a bloke who put a lot of hours into preparing a consumers guide to purchasing a second hand light aircraft for CAsA at the invitation of the then Chairman of the Board, Dr Paul Scully-Power and Mick Toller after he bought a "dog" of an aircraft with a fresh Annual.
Same bloke was on the Board of Directors of AOPA and presented it to them for the members after CAsA "amended" the missive and put their version in their flight safety magazine. In short it was based on the then CAsA annual/100 hourly inspection plus some traps to be wary of.
Now some would suggest, but I can't recommend, one joins AOPA or asks someone who is a member to ask them for a copy of that guide. As a second suggestion I would suggest, but not recommend, one search the CAsA Air Safety Magazine for the "sanitized" official version. Apply what is in the original missive to the current "Annual Inspection" requirements and you should have a fair guide.
In conclusion, any LAME has a duty of care to the person who paid them and commissioned the inspection. If you buy any aircraft with "a fresh Annual" thrown in, the LAME that does that inspection has the duty of care only to that person who paid him.
In writing from the then Deputy Prime Minister, after a Commonwealth Ombudsman report, and with the advice of his advisers, a current maintenance release is not to be relied upon to attest to the airworthiness of an aircraft. Go figure!
Same bloke was on the Board of Directors of AOPA and presented it to them for the members after CAsA "amended" the missive and put their version in their flight safety magazine. In short it was based on the then CAsA annual/100 hourly inspection plus some traps to be wary of.
Now some would suggest, but I can't recommend, one joins AOPA or asks someone who is a member to ask them for a copy of that guide. As a second suggestion I would suggest, but not recommend, one search the CAsA Air Safety Magazine for the "sanitized" official version. Apply what is in the original missive to the current "Annual Inspection" requirements and you should have a fair guide.
In conclusion, any LAME has a duty of care to the person who paid them and commissioned the inspection. If you buy any aircraft with "a fresh Annual" thrown in, the LAME that does that inspection has the duty of care only to that person who paid him.
In writing from the then Deputy Prime Minister, after a Commonwealth Ombudsman report, and with the advice of his advisers, a current maintenance release is not to be relied upon to attest to the airworthiness of an aircraft. Go figure!
I agree with WAC's choice of aircraft. We(my wife and I) own a Piper Cherokee Cruiser and both enjoy equally flying around in the little plane and we share all the running and maintenance costs.
Our costs are very similar to WAC's. We are at a capital city airport and our annuals would be in the region of a $1000 more than his, but our insurance is about $200 less.
Posts about corrosion are correct. There is constant attention to this at every annual to the tune of about $500 extra each time.
Our engine overhaul in 2011 was $32 000 including new mounts, fuel pump, carburettor, 4 new Lycoming cylinder kits(160hp) and the RAM STC for upgrade from 150hp to 160hp.
I cannot emphasize enough to any PA28-140 owner how worthwhile the upgrade to 160hp is at overhaul time at an insignificant increase in the cost for the reward of a huge improvement in rate of climb and a small improvement in TAS(now 110kts) and even fuel economy(32lph).
Our costs are very similar to WAC's. We are at a capital city airport and our annuals would be in the region of a $1000 more than his, but our insurance is about $200 less.
Posts about corrosion are correct. There is constant attention to this at every annual to the tune of about $500 extra each time.
Our engine overhaul in 2011 was $32 000 including new mounts, fuel pump, carburettor, 4 new Lycoming cylinder kits(160hp) and the RAM STC for upgrade from 150hp to 160hp.
I cannot emphasize enough to any PA28-140 owner how worthwhile the upgrade to 160hp is at overhaul time at an insignificant increase in the cost for the reward of a huge improvement in rate of climb and a small improvement in TAS(now 110kts) and even fuel economy(32lph).
The poor old 172 usually cops a bucketful for being uninteresting, uninspiring, a poor performer (ok, fair cop - when it's 42°C it won't pull the skin off a rice custard), dull to fly and the epitome of the Wichita spam can
Pipers don't have SIDS but I'd doubt if a Cherokee might not be potentially as bad in corrosion terms.
I have seen some bad corrosion on PA28, certainly the spar, including the inner spar and caps --- and where the main spar is attached to the fuselage.
Also around the tail --- all this means is that you can find corrosion where there is any aluminium or ferrous components, and that goes double for bi-metal corrosion. so corrosion is potentially going to be found anywhere ---- so look hard.
Picking up a really cheap C-172 with good engine /prop time and good avionics and rebuilding the wings could be a good deal, but personally I would prefer if somebody else took the financial risk, but you never know your luck, particularly if you have some expertise in the area.
Tootle pip!!
