GA Private Ramp Check questions...
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GA Private Ramp Check questions...
Hi,
I was wondering if anyone with any experience (or connection to CASA) may be able to help me with the following queries for a private General Aviation Local Scenic Flight or even just circuits.
I have no idea what to expect with a ramp check. Listening to different people's experiences it seems as though it's no different to being intercepted by a cop: it depends on who you get, what sort of mood they're in, etc with a wide range of outcomes.
Call me crazy, but I would love to be ramp checked by someone who is there to help educate me (so I know what I'm doing right, and can learn too from my mistakes) - but just the same I'm quite concerned about being ramp checked by someone just eager to write up as many infringements as they can.
As such, I'm wanting to prepare and cover myself for the worst and hope for the best, so referring to http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...-checks-ga.pdf I have the following questions:
Weather/NOTAMS:
How can I prove that I've "made a careful study of forecast weather and applicable NOTAMs". Should I have a copy with me for proof? (It's not required as I understand, but how else can I provide evidence)?
Will they accept verbal acknowledgement that there are no Notams, or the only ones was 'runway distance change', etc as proof? Weather I believe I'm OK with (if not flying more than 50nm) - but not sure about NOTAMS.
Fuel:
I've got 3.5hrs available, and I'm planning on a 40 minute local flight, (either circuits or a short local scenic around a small rural town, etc). Am I really expected to write all this down and do written calculations as well as in flight logs, or is this only for trips from A to B?
Normally I just do this in my head. (It's 9am. I can fly to 12:30 before I run out of gas. I'll be back by 10am - 2.5hrs reserve and never be more than 15 minutes from the strip - I'm fine with ample to spare). I could recall this verbally if ramp checked. Is this sufficient, or do I really need to log this down and maintain a fuel log throughout my flight? (Or even circuits)?
Appropriate, Current Charts and Documents
EFB's - Is this sufficient for me (with no paper backups at all)? It's not like I'm flying somewhere I'm not familiar. (In which I'd have paper all the way).
I'm doing a local scenic in a rural area I've grown up in my whole life not flying more than 20nm from the strip. Class G airspace so the only reason I'd be carrying it would be to comply with the rules anyway - I wouldn't even be referencing it during the flight. Same again with circuits. Is this enough?
Weights & Balance
One day I might be flying solo. (Circuits). Another I might take my young daughter up, or maybe a friend.
If I'm flying a 182. I know that I can carry full fuel plus an additional 250kgs easy without even pulling out the charts. So from prior experience I know I'm well within the weight and balance limits with more than 100kg's to spare.
I've got prior W&B checks where I've had more fuel and more weight in the plane.
Do I still need written evidence that I've already done a weight & balance check on paper for this flight - or is it sufficient to be able to verbally prove I'm within the limits and then demonstrate on paper if required?
(ie: Does CASA really expect people to do a separate W&B check each time they go out on a solo circuit with different fuel quantities)?
For other flights where I consider I need to do a W&B check (ie, taking a few people up where the margin will be smaller)- how do I provide evidence of weights?
Is it satisfactory to simply have their weights written down on paper with the charts, or how do I prove I've done it? (Do I have to take photo's of passengers standing on scales to make sure I'm covered 100% in case I get the ramp check from hell?)
Recent Experience
What normally happens here? Since I'm not required to carry my logbook (better if I don't) - once again - will they accept verbal acknowledgement. Will they allow me to scan and email a copy of my logbook after the ramp check?
As previously mentioned, a lot of this stuff seems like common sense, and I'd be happy to be corrected at a ramp check if I was falling short some where - but I'm just as concerned about making sure that I'm not going to get burnt for small things if I get the wrong inspector and I've slipped up somewhere.
I was wondering if anyone with any experience (or connection to CASA) may be able to help me with the following queries for a private General Aviation Local Scenic Flight or even just circuits.
I have no idea what to expect with a ramp check. Listening to different people's experiences it seems as though it's no different to being intercepted by a cop: it depends on who you get, what sort of mood they're in, etc with a wide range of outcomes.
Call me crazy, but I would love to be ramp checked by someone who is there to help educate me (so I know what I'm doing right, and can learn too from my mistakes) - but just the same I'm quite concerned about being ramp checked by someone just eager to write up as many infringements as they can.
As such, I'm wanting to prepare and cover myself for the worst and hope for the best, so referring to http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...-checks-ga.pdf I have the following questions:
Weather/NOTAMS:
How can I prove that I've "made a careful study of forecast weather and applicable NOTAMs". Should I have a copy with me for proof? (It's not required as I understand, but how else can I provide evidence)?
Will they accept verbal acknowledgement that there are no Notams, or the only ones was 'runway distance change', etc as proof? Weather I believe I'm OK with (if not flying more than 50nm) - but not sure about NOTAMS.
Fuel:
I've got 3.5hrs available, and I'm planning on a 40 minute local flight, (either circuits or a short local scenic around a small rural town, etc). Am I really expected to write all this down and do written calculations as well as in flight logs, or is this only for trips from A to B?
Normally I just do this in my head. (It's 9am. I can fly to 12:30 before I run out of gas. I'll be back by 10am - 2.5hrs reserve and never be more than 15 minutes from the strip - I'm fine with ample to spare). I could recall this verbally if ramp checked. Is this sufficient, or do I really need to log this down and maintain a fuel log throughout my flight? (Or even circuits)?
Appropriate, Current Charts and Documents
EFB's - Is this sufficient for me (with no paper backups at all)? It's not like I'm flying somewhere I'm not familiar. (In which I'd have paper all the way).
I'm doing a local scenic in a rural area I've grown up in my whole life not flying more than 20nm from the strip. Class G airspace so the only reason I'd be carrying it would be to comply with the rules anyway - I wouldn't even be referencing it during the flight. Same again with circuits. Is this enough?
Weights & Balance
One day I might be flying solo. (Circuits). Another I might take my young daughter up, or maybe a friend.
If I'm flying a 182. I know that I can carry full fuel plus an additional 250kgs easy without even pulling out the charts. So from prior experience I know I'm well within the weight and balance limits with more than 100kg's to spare.
I've got prior W&B checks where I've had more fuel and more weight in the plane.
Do I still need written evidence that I've already done a weight & balance check on paper for this flight - or is it sufficient to be able to verbally prove I'm within the limits and then demonstrate on paper if required?
(ie: Does CASA really expect people to do a separate W&B check each time they go out on a solo circuit with different fuel quantities)?
For other flights where I consider I need to do a W&B check (ie, taking a few people up where the margin will be smaller)- how do I provide evidence of weights?
Is it satisfactory to simply have their weights written down on paper with the charts, or how do I prove I've done it? (Do I have to take photo's of passengers standing on scales to make sure I'm covered 100% in case I get the ramp check from hell?)
Recent Experience
What normally happens here? Since I'm not required to carry my logbook (better if I don't) - once again - will they accept verbal acknowledgement. Will they allow me to scan and email a copy of my logbook after the ramp check?
As previously mentioned, a lot of this stuff seems like common sense, and I'd be happy to be corrected at a ramp check if I was falling short some where - but I'm just as concerned about making sure that I'm not going to get burnt for small things if I get the wrong inspector and I've slipped up somewhere.
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Thanks for the link, but unfortunately that page just looks like a web version of the link in my original post - doesn't actually answer the questions I have.
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Just apply the reasonable persons test to yourself when you prepare for a flight and if some arsehole FOI gets all up in your grille and tries to apply 999 penalty units just quit aviation. What choice do you have?
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Hi Guys,
I don't know how bad it's gotten (if it's gotten bad at all) - I'm just asking questions as to what would be required of me for the above scenario's, so they are a genuine questions.
The choices that I have as I see it are to:
a) Keep doing what I've always done, and run the risk of getting burnt. (Because I don't do a W&B check for myself when I fly, or a fuel log for local flights and I'm not sure what exactly is required of me).
b) Do absolutely everything for every flight regardless of whether it's circuits or a cross country/water flight.
c) Ask questions to find out.
I opted for option (c) which is why I'm here.
I don't know how bad it's gotten (if it's gotten bad at all) - I'm just asking questions as to what would be required of me for the above scenario's, so they are a genuine questions.
The choices that I have as I see it are to:
a) Keep doing what I've always done, and run the risk of getting burnt. (Because I don't do a W&B check for myself when I fly, or a fuel log for local flights and I'm not sure what exactly is required of me).
b) Do absolutely everything for every flight regardless of whether it's circuits or a cross country/water flight.
c) Ask questions to find out.
I opted for option (c) which is why I'm here.
As a general personal rule if I am outside the circuit I have at least one current paper chart and unless I have Two iPads, I have ERSA as well and please note that these backups must be accessible to the crew, not chucked in the back with the baggage. If you need glasses you must have a spare pair.
I'm not sure that "verbal" evidence of weather weight and balance and fuel logging will get you very far unless you haver perfect memory.
I generally do a quick back of the envelope W & B and If I’m touring I have a "trip book" which has my generic W & B for the tour written in.
Fuel log is just the back of a flight plan form.
However if you get a bloody minded FOI he will find something to ping you for and there is nothing you can do about it.
Its fear of one of these encounters with the capricious CASA that keeps me from attending fly ins, Birdsville races, etc. At least on the road with the police you can argue the point and the rules are pretty much set in concrete and easily applied. CASA? No such luck.
I'm not sure that "verbal" evidence of weather weight and balance and fuel logging will get you very far unless you haver perfect memory.
I generally do a quick back of the envelope W & B and If I’m touring I have a "trip book" which has my generic W & B for the tour written in.
Fuel log is just the back of a flight plan form.
However if you get a bloody minded FOI he will find something to ping you for and there is nothing you can do about it.
Its fear of one of these encounters with the capricious CASA that keeps me from attending fly ins, Birdsville races, etc. At least on the road with the police you can argue the point and the rules are pretty much set in concrete and easily applied. CASA? No such luck.
Hello Adza,
Understandably you're a bit anxious about something like this but in my experience as long as your courteous and have your ducks in a line a Ramp Check is very painless.
For your Weather/Notams it's not a particularly strenuous or costly task just to print these out quickly before you head off so I'd suggest just doing it. If you're just doing a scenic then you only need for one destination and it shouldn't take more than an A4 piece of paper to have this onhand. With the ERSA I believe you can just download the relevant ones online and print them out instead of purchasing an entire ERSA.
Aeronautical Information Package (AIP) | Airservices
For Fuel, CASA have this handy little A5 size laminated Fuel Log that they hand out for free, head into your local CASA office if you have one and ask them for one or you can get them online for free. A quick scribble each time with a marker you can wipe off after each flight and you're free and clear and they'll probably be impressed you're using their little tool!
SP088 - Flight planning kit ? Civil Aviation Safety Authority Australia
Appropriate Charts, just grab a local WAC to go with your EFB and a VTC if there is one that covers you and you'll be just fine, it's only a few beers worth and once again you never know if you might need it one day. Keep in mind you might know the area but someone who doesn't may be referencing a WAC chart to tell you where they are and the name of a location there may be different to what's on the Chart. As Sunfish said, keep it within arm reach as well.
Weight and Balance is just the way you described it and is what I did for both Skydiving and as a backup for Charter/Scenic Flight, just have one done up that represents worst case scenarios, maybe 2 or 3 that you can think of to demonstrate you know the limits of your aircraft.
With your logbook I'm not entirely certain about this, I am pretty sure they allow you a certain amount of time to bring this in to be checked but it's been a little while since I've been back in Aus and if you get a snarky FOI he may just decide to not believe you and you could be grounded, once again I don't particularly see the issue with taking your Logbook with you and if you're using the same Aircraft all the time then you'll have evidence of your flights in the Tech/Maintenance Log and that should suffice I'd say.
Doing the above will take all of about 5-10mins and give you piece of mind, if you have an FOI that likes to visit your field regularly and this is what has you concerned then after doing it a few times he may just get used to you and decide that you're not worth the effort of annoying each time as well!
Understandably you're a bit anxious about something like this but in my experience as long as your courteous and have your ducks in a line a Ramp Check is very painless.
For your Weather/Notams it's not a particularly strenuous or costly task just to print these out quickly before you head off so I'd suggest just doing it. If you're just doing a scenic then you only need for one destination and it shouldn't take more than an A4 piece of paper to have this onhand. With the ERSA I believe you can just download the relevant ones online and print them out instead of purchasing an entire ERSA.
Aeronautical Information Package (AIP) | Airservices
For Fuel, CASA have this handy little A5 size laminated Fuel Log that they hand out for free, head into your local CASA office if you have one and ask them for one or you can get them online for free. A quick scribble each time with a marker you can wipe off after each flight and you're free and clear and they'll probably be impressed you're using their little tool!
SP088 - Flight planning kit ? Civil Aviation Safety Authority Australia
Appropriate Charts, just grab a local WAC to go with your EFB and a VTC if there is one that covers you and you'll be just fine, it's only a few beers worth and once again you never know if you might need it one day. Keep in mind you might know the area but someone who doesn't may be referencing a WAC chart to tell you where they are and the name of a location there may be different to what's on the Chart. As Sunfish said, keep it within arm reach as well.
Weight and Balance is just the way you described it and is what I did for both Skydiving and as a backup for Charter/Scenic Flight, just have one done up that represents worst case scenarios, maybe 2 or 3 that you can think of to demonstrate you know the limits of your aircraft.
With your logbook I'm not entirely certain about this, I am pretty sure they allow you a certain amount of time to bring this in to be checked but it's been a little while since I've been back in Aus and if you get a snarky FOI he may just decide to not believe you and you could be grounded, once again I don't particularly see the issue with taking your Logbook with you and if you're using the same Aircraft all the time then you'll have evidence of your flights in the Tech/Maintenance Log and that should suffice I'd say.
Doing the above will take all of about 5-10mins and give you piece of mind, if you have an FOI that likes to visit your field regularly and this is what has you concerned then after doing it a few times he may just get used to you and decide that you're not worth the effort of annoying each time as well!
Rule 1: Ask for the FOI's identification and check it is current - always. No current ID = no ramp check, only fair.
2. Weather, if you have logged into NAIPS there is a record of the login - weather sorted. Jot anything pertinent on paper or use Ipad or similar.
3. Have your licence and medical with you
4. Have a load chart if the load is anywhere near maximum in either C of G or Gross
5. Make sure that if you have anything on board it is covered by a cargo net and/or properly restrained
6. Have some sort of flight plan, if your using an Ipad make sure you have a charge lead. This will cover chart requirements as well. No electronic device, have paper plan and charts. have something in mind for a backup.
7. Make sure the MR is signed and current
All over Rover.
2. Weather, if you have logged into NAIPS there is a record of the login - weather sorted. Jot anything pertinent on paper or use Ipad or similar.
3. Have your licence and medical with you
4. Have a load chart if the load is anywhere near maximum in either C of G or Gross
5. Make sure that if you have anything on board it is covered by a cargo net and/or properly restrained
6. Have some sort of flight plan, if your using an Ipad make sure you have a charge lead. This will cover chart requirements as well. No electronic device, have paper plan and charts. have something in mind for a backup.
7. Make sure the MR is signed and current
All over Rover.
Last edited by Aussie Bob; 5th Dec 2014 at 04:01. Reason: Forgot the MR
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Sunfish, Ixixly and Aussie Bob
Thanks very much for your detailed replies - this is exactly the sort of advise I'm looking for...
But I am wondering why having a paper WAC, or printed weather if I have an EFB. (Or if they're required, what's the benefit of a EFB at all - for small private local flights like I have mentioned)?
I don't see why I'd bother with a tablet if I'm going to have paper anyway.
I'd prefer just an EFB. As mentioend I could print the weather and notams to PDF and keep on my tablet as proof. If one device covers me for a ramp check. And if it doesn't and I legally require paper WAC's and ERSA (or printed pages) - what's the point of an EFB for these small fights at all?
I would be referring to none of them at all during flight - they're solely there for legal purposes.
Maybe someone can explain if an EFB / tablet by itself is legally sufficient for a rampcheck? (Plus license and medical of course).
Thanks about the W&B information. If I have "worst case scenario's" (which I do) handy - and can prove I come in 'under that' - then that's acceptable? Nice to know.
Thanks again for the advise...
Thanks very much for your detailed replies - this is exactly the sort of advise I'm looking for...
But I am wondering why having a paper WAC, or printed weather if I have an EFB. (Or if they're required, what's the benefit of a EFB at all - for small private local flights like I have mentioned)?
I don't see why I'd bother with a tablet if I'm going to have paper anyway.
I'd prefer just an EFB. As mentioend I could print the weather and notams to PDF and keep on my tablet as proof. If one device covers me for a ramp check. And if it doesn't and I legally require paper WAC's and ERSA (or printed pages) - what's the point of an EFB for these small fights at all?
I would be referring to none of them at all during flight - they're solely there for legal purposes.
Maybe someone can explain if an EFB / tablet by itself is legally sufficient for a rampcheck? (Plus license and medical of course).
Thanks about the W&B information. If I have "worst case scenario's" (which I do) handy - and can prove I come in 'under that' - then that's acceptable? Nice to know.
Thanks again for the advise...
What OzBob says!
Don't sweat it - I been flying both private and comical for 40 yrs and never been ramped.
There was that one time that some bod ran over to the 402 waving at me, but the door was closed and the engines running - so I gave him a wave and taxied away!
Dr
Don't sweat it - I been flying both private and comical for 40 yrs and never been ramped.
There was that one time that some bod ran over to the 402 waving at me, but the door was closed and the engines running - so I gave him a wave and taxied away!
Dr
In 20+ years of flying I've been ramp checked only once, at the Avalon air show last year.
I wasn't the pilot in command so I didn't deal with the FOI but I think the main things he wanted to see were:
maintenance release current and signed for the day;
weight and balance calculation;
fuel calculation;
appropriate current charts;
current ERSA and notams.
I wasn't the pilot in command so I didn't deal with the FOI but I think the main things he wanted to see were:
maintenance release current and signed for the day;
weight and balance calculation;
fuel calculation;
appropriate current charts;
current ERSA and notams.
And don't let him look in your nav bag if he asks. Refuse with a statement along the lines of I have given you the documents required by law.
And don't let him distract you from looking after your pax to and from the aircraft. Shut the door and tell him to look around the outside until you have finished your duties.
And don't let him distract you from looking after your pax to and from the aircraft. Shut the door and tell him to look around the outside until you have finished your duties.
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Adza, what you are doing sounds more than reasonable for a local flight. I have never been ramp checked in more than 4000 hrs so I think the chances are very small. Much more likely at an airshow or fly in. Put copies of your licence and medical on your tablet. You are doing far more than most flying locally. Doing what a reasonable person would do to comply is the main thing. Just enjoy your flying, be honest if you do speak to CASA but don't volunteer more than required.
It's good that one carries the things one should carry on a flight, licence, medical, maps etc. No problem. You are required by various regs to do so.
But are you required to prove it?
Show me "Ramp Check" in the Regulations.
But are you required to prove it?
Show me "Ramp Check" in the Regulations.
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Show me "Ramp Check" in the Regulations.
I have had three ramp checks in 30 years and one of those was part of a company surveillance. I have just handed them all the required documents and have never had any problems. In one case the Chief Pilot got a letter saying how well I conducted myself.
In one I had to explain the difference between empty and operating weight to the FOI, I still don't think he got it when I was finished!
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Howie....we're you baffling with bullsh1t 
Yep......the Dr tells the truth, at last! 
What OzBob says!
Don't sweat it - I been flying both private and comical for 40 yrs and never been ramped.
There was that one time that some bod ran over to the 402 waving at me, but the door was closed and the engines running - so I gave him a wave and taxied away!
Dr
Don't sweat it - I been flying both private and comical for 40 yrs and never been ramped.
There was that one time that some bod ran over to the 402 waving at me, but the door was closed and the engines running - so I gave him a wave and taxied away!
Dr
Lesson 1
For the budding pilot...and all others as well.... NOTE WELL.
NEVER, EVER talk to CAsA person/s on your own, Period.
Never mind how polite and smiley he/she may be to start with...you will NOT know the agenda and if the person is of the "brownie point" collector type with a liver problem.,,, there could be an unhappy end result.
YOU MUST..record the conversation, take notes, phone record or video and get someone to be with you if you can. Having your own witness is best but you must make a record to protect yourself if things go off the rails.
They work in pairs some times so alone your words can be contradicted..and you dont have a witness.!
Make sure you ask the name, see the ID, ask their business/reason for visit and if entry to a hangar is required, they must ask permission to enter.
If inconvenient, get them to make an appointment for a mutually suitable time.
You have PYA.. they have CYA 101 training and then some.
Like the boy scout Be Prepared.
NEVER, EVER talk to CAsA person/s on your own, Period.
Never mind how polite and smiley he/she may be to start with...you will NOT know the agenda and if the person is of the "brownie point" collector type with a liver problem.,,, there could be an unhappy end result.
YOU MUST..record the conversation, take notes, phone record or video and get someone to be with you if you can. Having your own witness is best but you must make a record to protect yourself if things go off the rails.
They work in pairs some times so alone your words can be contradicted..and you dont have a witness.!
Make sure you ask the name, see the ID, ask their business/reason for visit and if entry to a hangar is required, they must ask permission to enter.
If inconvenient, get them to make an appointment for a mutually suitable time.
You have PYA.. they have CYA 101 training and then some.
Like the boy scout Be Prepared.
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Howie....we're you baffling with bullsh1t
Yep......the Dr tells the truth, at last!
What OzBob says!
Don't sweat it - I been flying both private and comical for 40 yrs and never been ramped.
There was that one time that some bod ran over to the 402 waving at me, but the door was closed and the engines running - so I gave him a wave and taxied away!
Dr
Don't sweat it - I been flying both private and comical for 40 yrs and never been ramped.
There was that one time that some bod ran over to the 402 waving at me, but the door was closed and the engines running - so I gave him a wave and taxied away!
Dr