Legal experts: CAO 20.18.10

[Creampuff]

I think I may have a little bit of knowlege on this subject.

I’m sure you have a little bit of knowledge on this subject.

In other words if you are in charter you can't just drop down a cat and fly and enter it in the M/R unless it is IAW.

Irrespective of WTF ‘IAW’ means, yes you can.

You can employ an aircraft with a charter category MR in a private flight, and the instruments and equipment required for that flight are determined by the private aircraft provisions of 20.18, not the charter aircraft provisions of 20.18.

What you can’t do is employ an aircraft in a charter flight without a charter or higher category MR and serviceable instruments and equipment in accordance with the charter aircraft provisions of 20.18.

If you won't to do it go ahead. You get your penalty points.

In order to have to pay penalty points, you have to have breached a rule.

What rule is breached if an aircraft with a charter category MR is employed in a private flight, with an instrument U/S that 20.18 says is required for a charter flight but not a private flight? Nominate the regulation.

Given your vast experience and deep knowledge of the regulatory requirements, it should be easy.

[Mach E Avelli]

Yr right, I usually refrain from personal criticisms here, but really, to have us believe that one suffering a dyslexic condition could write a MEL is stretching it.
I can not imagine how CASA could accept it, if the clarity of your posts here, and general understanding of a quite simple CAO are anything to go by. And as an aside, the person who accepts or rejects a MEL item on the day is the pilot, not the engineer. His role may be to interpret and write it up, but if the pilot has other reasons for not accepting it, it's game over.
Creampuff and others here demonstrate a fine legal understanding of the concept of allowable dispatch at a lower level of operation when items are missing or unserviceable - you do seem to lack that same comprehension.
If Civil Aviation Orders, CASRs etc are not 'IAW' (whatever you take that abbreviation to mean) then WTF is?
And what do you mean by 'lbs'. Pounds? If you mean logbooks, hey aren't they a service record of an airframe, engine etc. Surely what's on the certificate of airworthiness determines the category?

[Creampuff]

I think you’ll find that lbs in yr right-ese means “Logbook Statement”. In yr right’s world, the logbook statement is the horse dragging the entire regulatory cart. A logbook statement is, in fact, the cart that follows the election to use either the manufacturer’s maintenance schedule, the CASA maintenance schedule (i.e. Schedule 5 of the CARs) or an approved system of maintenance as the schedule of maintenance for an aircraft.

(I also think you’ll find that the certificate of airworthiness certifies the compliance of an airframe with the type design, in the applicable airworthiness category e.g. transport, normal, utility…. . Charter etc is merely the classification of the operation in which the airframe happens to be engaged from time to time.)

[Mach E Avelli]

Thanks for the clarification. In recent times I have been working with the much simpler NZ rules so have lost track of some of the finer points of our obscure and multiple layers of rules and regulations. When parts 121, 125, 135 etc finally arrive here, my understanding is that charter will disappear as a separate category and it will all be transport. Or private.

[Virtually There]

Originally Posted by yr right

I will say this for the last time. Having been someone that has written used mels etc on muti Engine turbine engine in remote areas of Australia I think I may have a little bit of knowlege on this subject also having released more aircraft than I care to admit.

Hi yr right, the MEL's you used at work and continually refer to in this thread were issued under 20.18.10.4 in accordance with 37 (2).

Surely as an experienced LAME you know where MELs come from.

Originally Posted by yr right

20.18 is min equip required for each cat. It is not any way saying that if you are in a higher cat you can drop down and fly.

No, it is the minimum requirement for each operation - not category.

I think this is where you are getting confused. I don't blame you, because this is exactly where I was originally confused - hence asking what the definition of "charter aircraft" was in 20.18

"Charter aircraft" as defined under CAR Vol 2 (6) (b) is "an aircraft employed in charter operations".

Originally Posted by yr right

If you won't to do it go ahead. You get your penalty points. It won't worry me. As I said you are not allowed to go against what the LBS states. It's maintence and not flying ops. Period

20.18 clearly refers to "flying ops", as defined by the CARs.

Part 1 of the MR clearly refers to "Operational Category" - does it not?

The decision to fly or not is ultimately left to the PIC - is it not?

Mate, I've tried to be patient and give you the benefit of the doubt as you were clearly trying to help. But if you can't provide anything to support what you have been saying all this time, then do you honestly expect me to believe anything you write?

You talk of "penalty points", but you can't even point to the regs. I mean, c'mon - what "penalty points" are you even talking about?

I don't want to be rude, but why do you keep ignoring all our requests to point to the regulations you have based your entire argument on?

Is it because they don't exist and everything you have been saying is simply based on your own opinion? Because opinions don't stand up in court - sorry.

[yr right]

IAW In accordance with. 20.18 dose not give you the right to drop a cat to bring a plane back if it's in a higher cat with being done IAW ie mel pus or EO.

[Virtually There]

And where in the regulations does it state that?

We are going around in circles here.

[Eddie Dean]

To help with the confusion: CAAP 43-1-1 says that I can "downgrade" my IFR aircraft to VFR, as long as VFR requirements of 20.18 are adhered to.

[yr right]

And where dose it stTe you can. It dosent. 20.18 is min requirement list for each cat. That's all.
If your in charter cat and it's all serviceable then you can drop down and do what you won't.
If your in charter and you have an unserviceablity you just can't do it with having soning to do it IAW. That's why we have mels.

If you are in doubt call casa. Then let's us all know because I spend a s$&@ load of time traveling to get gear back and we all a brunch of dills and creamy the only one that knows the truth.

And as for being dxlexic and writing mel and som it's simple as. As for personal attacks your big boys.

This is bread and butter stuff.

You can't go outside of your lbs or m/r and the maintence system it says you have to do.

[Virtually There]

Mate, with respect, you need to learn how to read legislation.

20.18 - as I (and others) have already told you - states the minimum requirements for each OPERATION - not category. It is clearly defined in the CARs.

You also need to go back and read this thread, as I have already posted our response from CASA, which aligns with what everyone else has been saying.

Our CASA response is contrary to what you have stated.

I have refrained from personal attacks - and will continue to do so - but you have offered absolutely no evidence to support any of your claims.

And, strangely, each time someone asks you to reference your claims, you avoid the question.

Why is that?

[Virtually There]

I think this thread has served its useful purpose.

I have my answer, almost everyone is in consensus, and the regs are pretty clear.

Unless someone else can point to any other legislation that overrides the regs already referenced, then I think it's case closed.

[mcgrath50]

This is a common scenario where we 'drop a category'

You fly Day VFR charter in a SE plane to a destination, drop off the pax and come back at night. The plane has charter on the MR but you are flying back as a private flight and can therefore do SE NVFR.

In the same way if I got out to the destination, restarted and found that an instrument required for charter but not private was busted I could still return to base (having made the appropriate notes on the MR and placards etc.)

You are confusing maintenance category with category of flight which is what is referred to when we talk about instrument requirements for VFR/IFR Charter v Private, as well as night flight.