Light plane crash in the Barossa Valley S.A.
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Any engineering experts out there?
I've been doing some reading and looking at the pictures from the news. I can't find the tie-down lug in the parts catalogue which would show us which rivet line go, however it looks like it's where the fuel tank ends as that's the only rivet join. This is where the doubler ends.
Thoughts?
From the Tecnam parts catalogue:
http://www.ultraleicht.de/tecnam/PDF/sparesP2002.pdf
I've been doing some reading and looking at the pictures from the news. I can't find the tie-down lug in the parts catalogue which would show us which rivet line go, however it looks like it's where the fuel tank ends as that's the only rivet join. This is where the doubler ends.
Thoughts?
From the Tecnam parts catalogue:
http://www.ultraleicht.de/tecnam/PDF/sparesP2002.pdf
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Thanks Crezzi, you are correct and I should have mentioned that. I was advised that the construction method is essentially the same in terms of the doublers but with different leading edge. If that's wrong and you or someone knows the location of the G model diagrams, please feel free to post.
Interesting that some Pprune members are putting down aircraft with a lower MTOW. There are good early Piper examples around the 600 KG sharing the same chromoly steel cage around the cockpit area as the Tecnam. Cessna had the 120/140 around this MTOW, before building C150/C152's which got heavier and heavier.
According to the factory website, the designer of the Tecnam (and the P68 Partenavia) built his first aircraft back in 1948 and for many years produced a 172 look alike that was the main trainer in Italian aero clubs. (A model currently being revived by Vulcanair). Perhaps he and his design team have the credentials to build safe, strong 600kg LSA's as well as design and build the 11-seat twin to replace the C402 and Chieftan that is currently happening.
Some simple googling revealed the following 'serious' GA aircraft having in-flight failures.
On 7 December 2011, the owner-pilot of a Cessna 210M, registered VH-WBZ, was conducting a private flight under the visual flight rules from Roma to Dysart in Queensland. Thunderstorms with associated cloud, rain and severe turbulence were forecast for the area. About 30 minutes into the flight the outer sections of the wings and parts of the tail separated. The aircraft collided with terrain, fatally injuring the pilot.
Beech F33A Bonanza
A/C SUSTAINED INFLIGHT BREAK-UP DUE POSITIVE "G" OVERLOAD. 4 FATALITIES.
INVESTIGATION BY THE FRENCH AUTHORITIES CONCLUDED THAT THE ACCIDENT WAS THE RESULT OF A LOSS OF CONTROL OF THE A/C IN IMC FLIGHT. THE LOSS OF CONTROL RESULTED IN BREAK UP OF THE A/C WHICH TOOK PLACE ABOVE 1000 METRES IN CLOUD. FAILURE OF THE A/C'S WINGS RESULTED FROM EXCEEDANCE OF THE MAXIMUM PERMITTED "G" LIMITATIONS. ATTRIBUTED FACTORS WERE, INSUFFICIENT FLIGHT PREPARATION, PILOT INEXPERIENCE PARTICULARLY IN INSTRUMENT FLYING CONDITIONS, FLIGHT IN TURBULENCE & ICING, A/C WEIGHT & C OF G OUTSIDE ENVELOPE. SEE FRENCH BUREAU ENQUETES-ACCIDENTS REPORT NR 28370 ISSN NR 1148-4292, DATED MAY 1992. CAA CLOSURE-ACCIDENT PUBLICISED IN GASIL 12/92. NO FURTHER CAA ACTION APPROPRIATE.
Piper PA-28R-200 Cherokee Arrow II
OUTER TWO-THIRDS OF RIGHT WING SEPARATED IN FLIGHT. PILOT KILLED.
PILOT (SOLE OCCUPANT) REPORTED OVERHEAD ARUNDEL AT 2000FT VMC. SHORTLY AFTERWARDS, WITNESSES SAW A/C EMERGE FROM CLOUD MINUS RH WING. CAA CLOSURE: PILOT HELD NEITHER IMC NOR INSTRUMENT RATINGS. WX CONDITIONS AT TIME HAD CLOUD FROM 700FT TO ABOVE 2400 FT. ACCIDENT BELIEVED DUE TO PILOT BECOMING DISORIENTATED IN IMC AND IMPOSING EXCESSIVE CONTROL INPUTS DURING ATTEMPTS TO CONTROL AIRCRAFT. THE RIGHT HAND WING HAD FAILED THROUGH OVERSTRESSING DUE TO AN EXCESSIVE UP-LOAD.
A large number of our tragedies are as a result of poor pilot decision making. There needs to be greater emphasis on education and the setting of student pilot personal standards by flight instructors and their training organisations. We all have a roll as mentors when we see potential for a low hour pilot to get into trouble, but we don't, do we?
According to the factory website, the designer of the Tecnam (and the P68 Partenavia) built his first aircraft back in 1948 and for many years produced a 172 look alike that was the main trainer in Italian aero clubs. (A model currently being revived by Vulcanair). Perhaps he and his design team have the credentials to build safe, strong 600kg LSA's as well as design and build the 11-seat twin to replace the C402 and Chieftan that is currently happening.
Some simple googling revealed the following 'serious' GA aircraft having in-flight failures.
On 7 December 2011, the owner-pilot of a Cessna 210M, registered VH-WBZ, was conducting a private flight under the visual flight rules from Roma to Dysart in Queensland. Thunderstorms with associated cloud, rain and severe turbulence were forecast for the area. About 30 minutes into the flight the outer sections of the wings and parts of the tail separated. The aircraft collided with terrain, fatally injuring the pilot.
Beech F33A Bonanza
A/C SUSTAINED INFLIGHT BREAK-UP DUE POSITIVE "G" OVERLOAD. 4 FATALITIES.
INVESTIGATION BY THE FRENCH AUTHORITIES CONCLUDED THAT THE ACCIDENT WAS THE RESULT OF A LOSS OF CONTROL OF THE A/C IN IMC FLIGHT. THE LOSS OF CONTROL RESULTED IN BREAK UP OF THE A/C WHICH TOOK PLACE ABOVE 1000 METRES IN CLOUD. FAILURE OF THE A/C'S WINGS RESULTED FROM EXCEEDANCE OF THE MAXIMUM PERMITTED "G" LIMITATIONS. ATTRIBUTED FACTORS WERE, INSUFFICIENT FLIGHT PREPARATION, PILOT INEXPERIENCE PARTICULARLY IN INSTRUMENT FLYING CONDITIONS, FLIGHT IN TURBULENCE & ICING, A/C WEIGHT & C OF G OUTSIDE ENVELOPE. SEE FRENCH BUREAU ENQUETES-ACCIDENTS REPORT NR 28370 ISSN NR 1148-4292, DATED MAY 1992. CAA CLOSURE-ACCIDENT PUBLICISED IN GASIL 12/92. NO FURTHER CAA ACTION APPROPRIATE.
Piper PA-28R-200 Cherokee Arrow II
OUTER TWO-THIRDS OF RIGHT WING SEPARATED IN FLIGHT. PILOT KILLED.
PILOT (SOLE OCCUPANT) REPORTED OVERHEAD ARUNDEL AT 2000FT VMC. SHORTLY AFTERWARDS, WITNESSES SAW A/C EMERGE FROM CLOUD MINUS RH WING. CAA CLOSURE: PILOT HELD NEITHER IMC NOR INSTRUMENT RATINGS. WX CONDITIONS AT TIME HAD CLOUD FROM 700FT TO ABOVE 2400 FT. ACCIDENT BELIEVED DUE TO PILOT BECOMING DISORIENTATED IN IMC AND IMPOSING EXCESSIVE CONTROL INPUTS DURING ATTEMPTS TO CONTROL AIRCRAFT. THE RIGHT HAND WING HAD FAILED THROUGH OVERSTRESSING DUE TO AN EXCESSIVE UP-LOAD.
A large number of our tragedies are as a result of poor pilot decision making. There needs to be greater emphasis on education and the setting of student pilot personal standards by flight instructors and their training organisations. We all have a roll as mentors when we see potential for a low hour pilot to get into trouble, but we don't, do we?
Interesting that some PPRuNe members are putting down aircraft with a lower MTOW.
I have flown LSA aircraft and enjoyed it, but I would be now more careful about when and where I fly them based on what I have seen in the way of damage and how it was inflicted on the particular aircraft
I dont know that people are putting down aircraft with very low MTOW. What I am saying is that they should, maybe treated differently, this may involve different training, or some sort of restriction on use.
While some of the actual training may leave a bit to be desired, the training program is in place. The RAA pilots I come across regularly are mostly careful fair weather pilots who retire to the hangar long before their GA compatriots.
---- & all make no distinction as to what level of drivers license you hold.
Ain't that the truth!!
Tootle pip!!
PS:
The UK Met. Office "Handbook of Aviation Meteorology" must be a good book, I have had two nicked by students.
PS2;
One day at Evans Head, observed a Jab stall and "spin" in turning final. The major injuries suffered by the pilot were scratches to her legs from walking through the gorse scrub back to the airfield. When we retrieved the aircraft on the back of a good old Landcruiser flatbed, the damage was a broken prop, nose leg and one U/C main leg, there was no deformation of the cockpit. I was absolutely amazed, as I knew little about Jabiru at the time.
Last edited by LeadSled; 30th Jun 2014 at 09:43.
Arnold, they already are being treated differently, they are administered by the RAA and endorsements cover the whole gamut; low speed, nose wheel, tail wheel, high performance, low performance etc. with training required for each and every endorsement. The restriction is day VFR OCTA (without PPL), how much more restricted do you want?
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Good summary, Bob.
XXX, the Golf parts catalog is available at the same site you visited:
http://www.ultraleicht.de/tecnam/PDF/sparesP96_GOLF.pdf
I'm not an aero or structural engineer but it looks as though the failure line is outboard of the doubler you point to. Just counting back the rivet lines from the tip, and noting the amount of aileron showing.
Maybe not much ultimately relevant in the structural analysis of what's clearly a pretty reasonable airframe, given all the other more pertinent points of weather and possible loss of control scenarios raised. Until you know it was definitely failure under load as opposed to e.g. collision with a wire or structure, it's all pretty speculative.
XXX, the Golf parts catalog is available at the same site you visited:
http://www.ultraleicht.de/tecnam/PDF/sparesP96_GOLF.pdf
I'm not an aero or structural engineer but it looks as though the failure line is outboard of the doubler you point to. Just counting back the rivet lines from the tip, and noting the amount of aileron showing.
Maybe not much ultimately relevant in the structural analysis of what's clearly a pretty reasonable airframe, given all the other more pertinent points of weather and possible loss of control scenarios raised. Until you know it was definitely failure under load as opposed to e.g. collision with a wire or structure, it's all pretty speculative.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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How did Mac Job finish some reports in the old Aviation Safety Digest?
I seem to remember it went something like........`The VFR rated Pilot continued flight into conditions that were not suitable for VMC and suffered a subsequent loss of control in IMC conditions.`
I know I`m flogging a dead horse though, re the old ASD
I seem to remember it went something like........`The VFR rated Pilot continued flight into conditions that were not suitable for VMC and suffered a subsequent loss of control in IMC conditions.`
I know I`m flogging a dead horse though, re the old ASD
Pinky,
You'll remember that the Barossa Valley Gliding Club's old clubhouse at Stonefield always had those excellent 'Aviation Safety Digests'. I used to read them too. And I also learned a lot as well from an early age.
(One of those very useful lessons being learning the phonetic alphabet when I was about 13.)
Thread drift, yes I know.. But the current CAsA regime doing away with their previous inferior paper offering is a bit sad. And for a financial saving of just how much?
Cheers, mate.
You'll remember that the Barossa Valley Gliding Club's old clubhouse at Stonefield always had those excellent 'Aviation Safety Digests'. I used to read them too. And I also learned a lot as well from an early age.
(One of those very useful lessons being learning the phonetic alphabet when I was about 13.)
Thread drift, yes I know.. But the current CAsA regime doing away with their previous inferior paper offering is a bit sad. And for a financial saving of just how much?
Cheers, mate.
Hey Pinks,
If it walks like a duck.......sometimes, someone just has to say what it looks like..
Cheers
But a very sad event all the same.
If it walks like a duck.......sometimes, someone just has to say what it looks like..
Cheers
But a very sad event all the same.
--- this may involve different training
In my view (many years an instructor, CFI etc, both in UK and AU) one of the serious issues with flying training in Australia is students are taught to fly a type, rather than being taught how to fly aeroplanes.
A properly trained pilot should be able to adapt to the minor differences between types, particularly if you started on a taildrager.
Recently, a young chap I know, who seems to be at least an average competent pilot (he has a CPL) wanted to do a taildrager endorsement, he was quoted ten hours for the endorsement --- if you take that long to be checked out, maybe you shouldn't be flying at all.
Or maybe a particular training organisation ripping customers off ??
Tootle pip!!
I agree Leadsled. One of my favourite things is to "self endorse" on a new type. That is; study the book and have a go on my own. Its been possible with singles for a long time, it should be possible with twins if the new leg ever gets in.
Leadsled, I (mostly) agree with part one of your statement and have frequently had my say about the odd RA instructor insisting that they haven't ever signed off anyone in less than 10 hours
.
As to the taildragon, I trained on C150/2's and have flown a reasonable range of singles including RA types, but after my minor exposure to conventional gear (Drifter and Cub) I certainly wouldn't take it amiss if someone told me it was going to take that long to get signed off, there is a whole range of finer skills there that just aren't required to land a tricycle on a long, wide runway and that now need to be developed. I'd expect though that a fair portion of that time would be solo circuits with an instructor ever ready to call "oi, stay on the ground and let's talk about that last one"
. As to the taildragon, I trained on C150/2's and have flown a reasonable range of singles including RA types, but after my minor exposure to conventional gear (Drifter and Cub) I certainly wouldn't take it amiss if someone told me it was going to take that long to get signed off, there is a whole range of finer skills there that just aren't required to land a tricycle on a long, wide runway and that now need to be developed. I'd expect though that a fair portion of that time would be solo circuits with an instructor ever ready to call "oi, stay on the ground and let's talk about that last one"
An RAA board member has reported publically that the airframe suffered a structural failure
All very well to open your mouth but a statement such as that perhaps needs additional information.
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And the cause was???
I would say that if it had hit a pole or something that would have been mentioned. It appears to be a given that it broke up in flight, however nobody knows exactly why. We are all assuming that it was due to catastrophic forces/ IMC etc, however for all we know the wing might have been repaired prior... it's anyone's guess.
The only misgiving I have about a lot of VLAs is their ability to cruise faster than Vno. Structural failure suggests this could be the first point of investigation. Clag is one thing, speed in turbulence can be a real killer.
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I wouldn't place too much on the point of where the wing failed, all things considered. In the following both wings failed outboard as a result of too much "g". Manufacturers comment "that's where we would expect them to fail, and at that "g" load".
