Channel 7 Sunday Night Program About VH-MDX
Dora
Let me say for a start I'm not anti raaf or military.
...
The list can continue. These ex mil are cause tremendous damage to the industry. I've seen as many others have. The difference is I say it most don't. They extremly vindictive to the enths degree. Same as this issue. They won't give an inch because they don't won't to loose face or power. There is no need for the resicted airspace that this post is about. Not one person has come forward and given one reason for it. Not once did dick blame any one person but the establishment. Yet you continue to say that. It's more knock the tall poppy down situation. I don't always agree what dick dose or says but on this I agree with him.
Cheers
Let me say for a start I'm not anti raaf or military.
...
The list can continue. These ex mil are cause tremendous damage to the industry. I've seen as many others have. The difference is I say it most don't. They extremly vindictive to the enths degree. Same as this issue. They won't give an inch because they don't won't to loose face or power. There is no need for the resicted airspace that this post is about. Not one person has come forward and given one reason for it. Not once did dick blame any one person but the establishment. Yet you continue to say that. It's more knock the tall poppy down situation. I don't always agree what dick dose or says but on this I agree with him.
Cheers
The way you attempt to tar ex military with the same brush is astonishing, and it obvious that you are the ignorant one, not the supposed evil ex mil guys.
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Thanks Evilroy hadn't read that.
Changes things as i knew them a bit but planning coastal would have I believe changed more. I accept that the pilot did not do well, in fact he should have been selling life insurance IMHO, not doing an NVMC (so-called but really IFR) flight that night, however the odds might have just stayed his way had he been allowed to flight plan coastal. That's the point I think. Moving the rhetoric aside, the question is, "Should someone planning the same trip tonight be entitled to flight plan, and expect, clearance coastal?"
My opinion is "yes"
Changes things as i knew them a bit but planning coastal would have I believe changed more. I accept that the pilot did not do well, in fact he should have been selling life insurance IMHO, not doing an NVMC (so-called but really IFR) flight that night, however the odds might have just stayed his way had he been allowed to flight plan coastal. That's the point I think. Moving the rhetoric aside, the question is, "Should someone planning the same trip tonight be entitled to flight plan, and expect, clearance coastal?"
My opinion is "yes"
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"this game cannot be made 100% safe but one must always keep the odds on one's side when one can"
In essence this is what Dick is trying to facilitate with his request for change, but it's turned into a noisy turf war between civvy street and the mil, and nobody seems to be listening.
Find a way for the RAAF to maintain control, not lose face or power but allow what you want - and that giving an inch won't be taken a mile
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""Should someone planning the same trip tonight be entitled to flight plan, and expect, clearance coastal?""
Go in with that attitude and you won't get anywhere, in fact, even using the word "entitled" will get you a big NO.
You are not just asking for whatever you are asking, this is what you are up against. From the RAAF Web site.
"It is Air Force's intent that RAAF Base Williamtown remain as the nation’s main fighter pilot training base, and it will house most of the planned F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Lightning aircraft."
So, you have the brightest and the best, training the brightest and the best and wanting the best training area which they currently have - sea, Bombing and gunnery ranges with all the inherent safety rules required, low flying, Army, Navy assets for joint training and probably 100 other things I have't thought of. As such you are up against far more than just ATC procedures. Also, the CAS is one of them and always will be.
The Government does not spend $12 billion to then limit how they train because some recreational flyers want to fly in a straight line instead of having to go via another route - I know that is a short, blunt and rude way of putting it but that is how others will see it within.
So, "Find a way for the RAAF to maintain control, not lose face or power and not hinder training but allow what you want - and that giving an inch won't be taken a mile" and you might actually get somewhere. Until then, you will spend another 30 years doing what you have been doing which seems to be getting nowhere.
Go in with that attitude and you won't get anywhere, in fact, even using the word "entitled" will get you a big NO.
You are not just asking for whatever you are asking, this is what you are up against. From the RAAF Web site.
"It is Air Force's intent that RAAF Base Williamtown remain as the nation’s main fighter pilot training base, and it will house most of the planned F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Lightning aircraft."
So, you have the brightest and the best, training the brightest and the best and wanting the best training area which they currently have - sea, Bombing and gunnery ranges with all the inherent safety rules required, low flying, Army, Navy assets for joint training and probably 100 other things I have't thought of. As such you are up against far more than just ATC procedures. Also, the CAS is one of them and always will be.
The Government does not spend $12 billion to then limit how they train because some recreational flyers want to fly in a straight line instead of having to go via another route - I know that is a short, blunt and rude way of putting it but that is how others will see it within.
So, "Find a way for the RAAF to maintain control, not lose face or power and not hinder training but allow what you want - and that giving an inch won't be taken a mile" and you might actually get somewhere. Until then, you will spend another 30 years doing what you have been doing which seems to be getting nowhere.
Last edited by 500N; 7th Jun 2014 at 07:09.
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The military run the country in Thailand 500N.
The politicians run it here.
It's because the last thirty years has not seen progress that Dick is out there rocking the boat.
It will be very interesting to see what transpires.
The politicians run it here.
It's because the last thirty years has not seen progress that Dick is out there rocking the boat.
It will be very interesting to see what transpires.
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12 billion $$$$$$ yep I here yeah so find some other route trouble is there is no other route. The route is raaf. How long before they destroy one of these latest and greatest to a smoky hole in the ground.
Cheers
Cheers
So, you have the brightest and the best, training the brightest and the best and wanting the best training area which they currently have - sea, Bombing and gunnery ranges with all the inherent safety rules required, low flying, Army, Navy assets for joint training and probably 100 other things I have't thought of. As such you are up against far more than just ATC procedures. Also, the CAS is one of them and always will be.
How do you think the USAF, USN, US Marines or the US Army get on, without that long list of requirements ---- of course, they have the same considerations, but exclusion of civil traffic from all their airspace, just to make their life easier, isn't an option.
For the RAAF it is the easy option, let's say it the "Australia military culture" to disrespect and disregard the entirely reasonable needs of civil aviation.
Indeed, civil aviation is entitled to be able to operate with the same freedom that is enjoyed in the US.
Unfortunately, and wrongly, Australian law is on the side of the military, unlike US legislation, which, broadly speaking, requires the joint civil/military control of US national airspace, for the use and benefit of all potential users of the airspace.
Tootle pip!!
PS: CWO Geoff, ignore the turkey who calls him her, or itself yr right, in posts on some threads he/she/it writes reasonably normal English, the idiot savant without the savant is an affectation.
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The military run the country in Thailand 500N.
The politicians run it here.
It will be very interesting to see what transpires
The politicians run it here.
It will be very interesting to see what transpires
When it comes to certain things in the mil, the "sacred cows" as one name that has been used, pollies often find it is easier to let things be than rock the boat. Especially when they spend all those lovely dollars on toys that pollies like having photos taken next to !
And the military is very much in Abbott's good books at the moment
having made him look good on a number of occasions.
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Lead
I see that word "entitled" again
I am not saying you (or the others) are wrong, in fact I can well see merit in what you say / want. I am ex mil and know full well what attitude we have / had, especially if you are part of the "sacred cows" !
I am trying to suggest what you need to consider in what you are trying to achieve which is effectively sell something to the RAAF that they don't seem to want.
So, I'll say it again, "Find a way for the RAAF to maintain control, not lose face or power and not hinder training but allow what you want - and that giving an inch won't be taken a mile" and you might actually get somewhere.
I see that word "entitled" again
I am not saying you (or the others) are wrong, in fact I can well see merit in what you say / want. I am ex mil and know full well what attitude we have / had, especially if you are part of the "sacred cows" !
I am trying to suggest what you need to consider in what you are trying to achieve which is effectively sell something to the RAAF that they don't seem to want.
So, I'll say it again, "Find a way for the RAAF to maintain control, not lose face or power and not hinder training but allow what you want - and that giving an inch won't be taken a mile" and you might actually get somewhere.
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500n. The problem as I see it is there is really no other route around unless you go over the range. Clearly that's the most worst route to take when there is an easier option.
Still no one person has said why it has to be like it is
Cheers
Still no one person has said why it has to be like it is
Cheers
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yr right,
You purport to work in the aviation industry in some capacity, an industry where clear, concise and effective communication can literally mean the difference between life and death.
Your posts are unintelligible, and what little of them is understood, is ill informed.
I would be more scared to be flying somewhere where you are near me and I have to communicate with you, than any amount of partial panel IFR over the Tops.
For the want of someone to spell and grammar check you before your post, any relevant message you *may* have is lost in your terrible Signal-to-noise-ratio.
Reading you 1's, please try an alternate means!
You purport to work in the aviation industry in some capacity, an industry where clear, concise and effective communication can literally mean the difference between life and death.
Your posts are unintelligible, and what little of them is understood, is ill informed.
I would be more scared to be flying somewhere where you are near me and I have to communicate with you, than any amount of partial panel IFR over the Tops.
For the want of someone to spell and grammar check you before your post, any relevant message you *may* have is lost in your terrible Signal-to-noise-ratio.
Reading you 1's, please try an alternate means!
Last edited by RatsoreA; 7th Jun 2014 at 10:11.
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"They might run the country but they don't run the mil !"
Not sure about that 500N.
When Defence Minister Smith wanted the Commandant of the ADF College treated (in my opinion) unfairly and without due (or any) process the defence chiefs crumbled quickly enough. I was quite ashamed of them really.
Not sure about that 500N.
When Defence Minister Smith wanted the Commandant of the ADF College treated (in my opinion) unfairly and without due (or any) process the defence chiefs crumbled quickly enough. I was quite ashamed of them really.
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Bill
Yes, you are correct. Same as the charging 3 soldiers.
But in the end he was reinstated, fully.
Yr right
Understand. So instead of asking for the lot, ask for a small window at certain times, like weekends or whatever.
It needs to be a compromise. At present you are asking for the world
And you are night going to get it.
Yes, you are correct. Same as the charging 3 soldiers.
But in the end he was reinstated, fully.
Yr right
Understand. So instead of asking for the lot, ask for a small window at certain times, like weekends or whatever.
It needs to be a compromise. At present you are asking for the world
And you are night going to get it.
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Over it.
Some Trolls have a very 'distinctive' footprint and methodology. Some are really quite clever; a good example is the 'dyslexic' ploy. Make your posts so bad, that after a while no one gives a continental about reading the thread, because the last post was – Oh, that fwit - again; so the thread slides away. The next ploy is to 'jump in', immediately after a 'read' poster, this has the effect of nullifying the 'good' post to later readers, again making the thread 'droop' through MIF (acronym:Massive Interest Failure)
Bill, Dick, Leady. et al: folk I respect and value; you are being 'worked' (do the numbers) – and welcome to a battle ground where the rules are writ ever so slightly different; not by gentlemen.
May the farce be with you.
Bill, Dick, Leady. et al: folk I respect and value; you are being 'worked' (do the numbers) – and welcome to a battle ground where the rules are writ ever so slightly different; not by gentlemen.
May the farce be with you.
Last edited by Kharon; 7th Jun 2014 at 09:16. Reason: Midnight oil in a good cause. Hiya Dick....
Thread Starter
Can anyone post a copy of the Williamtown restricted areas at that time?
Particularly R589 and R591B which were active that night to 10,000. What were the dimensions?
I have found when they man the tower for a few RPT flights- say on a weekend when the fighters are not flying - they also activate a number of restricted areas.
Why do they do this?
By the way , the only time I want to fly this route at night I do it in the CJ3 and it's possible to plan through the airspace . That was changed years ago.
My sole intention of this campaign is help reduce the chance of such an accident happening again.
Also can someone post details of the Mooney fatal accident.
Particularly R589 and R591B which were active that night to 10,000. What were the dimensions?
I have found when they man the tower for a few RPT flights- say on a weekend when the fighters are not flying - they also activate a number of restricted areas.
Why do they do this?
By the way , the only time I want to fly this route at night I do it in the CJ3 and it's possible to plan through the airspace . That was changed years ago.
My sole intention of this campaign is help reduce the chance of such an accident happening again.
Also can someone post details of the Mooney fatal accident.
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Dick
How do you know the fighters are not flying ?
Secondly, the raaf / army has more than just fighters
And they do operate on weekends.
How do you know the fighters are not flying ?
Secondly, the raaf / army has more than just fighters
And they do operate on weekends.