Lengthy superfluous checklists and airmanship lookout
Well there you go! W8, Centaurus tried to get me to left right scan the Cessna for ages....and to think I was already doing it if I was flying a tiger...
Imagine, if you will, the simple joy the very first time on downwind ... undercarriage down and locked and it really happens
Imagine, if you will, the simple joy the very first time on downwind ... undercarriage down and locked and it really happens
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Oktas8 Nothing harsh with what you said.
From a student pilot perspective with less then 50 hours, learning one generic landing checklist that gets my backside on the ground with a working aircraft seems less complicated then learning a manufactures checklist every time a change type even if individually they are all shorter (this is during ppl training only).
commonly when you change type its to start the next phase of training ie navigation. So if you can bring everything you memorised from a C152 and bring it straight across to a new type, you can focus on learning that pesky navigation stuff and everything else should be second nature.
Have you changed aircraft type on a student during PPL for what ever reason and given them a new set of manufactures checklist to digest as well as the lesson material, how did that go? (serious question)
From a student pilot perspective with less then 50 hours, learning one generic landing checklist that gets my backside on the ground with a working aircraft seems less complicated then learning a manufactures checklist every time a change type even if individually they are all shorter (this is during ppl training only).
commonly when you change type its to start the next phase of training ie navigation. So if you can bring everything you memorised from a C152 and bring it straight across to a new type, you can focus on learning that pesky navigation stuff and everything else should be second nature.
Have you changed aircraft type on a student during PPL for what ever reason and given them a new set of manufactures checklist to digest as well as the lesson material, how did that go? (serious question)
Set high standards get high performance, set low standards get low performance.....
Set high standards get high performance, set low standards get low performance.....
And boring as it sounds, comply with the law ---- see CAR 138.
Regardless of what you might have been taught --- and most of the stuff here is real WW11 vintage, what happens after an incident or accident is something to bear in mind, and lawyers for the person suing you will only be interested in showing your non-compliance (ignoring CASR 21 and CAR 138) contributed to the damages.
Slightly of the thread, but how many of you who hire aircraft make certain of terms of the insurance (if any) on the aircraft, and if you are adequately covered. Even small bingles can run up bankruptcy sized bills.
Tootle Pip!!
I swapped aircraft a few times during my training. My school insisted on airline type checklists so it didn't really make that much difference.
What was painfully annoying was flying with 7 or 8 different instructors up to CPL. Changing instructors every other flight was much more of a problem than a checklist. Read the list do the actions. Not that difficult.
Remembering all the little ridiculous things my multitude of instructors would insist on me doing was much more stressful.
What was painfully annoying was flying with 7 or 8 different instructors up to CPL. Changing instructors every other flight was much more of a problem than a checklist. Read the list do the actions. Not that difficult.
Remembering all the little ridiculous things my multitude of instructors would insist on me doing was much more stressful.
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Pilotchute,
I agree too much instructor swapping is bad.
I do hope you do not "read the list do the actions"
I hear this from "airline" type school students, but this is NOT the way airlines do checklists!
And:
Definitely not the way for GA.
I agree too much instructor swapping is bad.
I do hope you do not "read the list do the actions"
I hear this from "airline" type school students, but this is NOT the way airlines do checklists!
And:
Definitely not the way for GA.
Thread Starter
Pity the new student who is cursed with different instructors on almost every lesson; each of whom only teach what they in turn were taught - repeat ad nauseum.
Having learned a whole variety of mnemonics when I learned to fly, I have forgotten all except two. The first was PPUFF on final in a Tiger Moth which my brand new wet behind the ears Grade C (now called Grade 3) told me were "Killer" items. They stood for Pitch (not applicable). Power Poles. Undercarriage (not applicable). Flaps (not applicable). Feathered friends. Another instructor told me that was all bulldust and forget it. But how could I forget it when they were KILLER ITEMS?
Another instructor (seriously experienced with four gold bars on his shoulders, a BIG watch, a pair of BIG wings and a dinky coloured ID card dangling from his neck like one of those old grannies who have their spectacles hanging by a looped cord around their neck), well he told me to remember a mnemonic which I shall never forget and that was the wonderful MFFHHB.
Now I could never remember what each letter technically represented but I never forgot "My Friend Fred Has Hairy Balls" which, I was assured by that particular instructor, were the dreaded KILLER items before landing in a Tiger Moth. They stood for: Mixture. Fuel on. Flaps (not applicable but just in case I might fly a Boeing 747 one day in the future) Hatches. Harness. Brakes (not applicable in early Tiger Moths) In later years I wondered why airline pilots don't use mnemonics because they can be good fun.
One Pprune contributor to this thread said: "What was painfully annoying was flying with 7 or 8 different instructors up to CPL. Changing instructors every other flight was much more of a problem than a checklist. Read the list do the actions. Not that difficult.
Remembering all the little ridiculous things my multitude of instructors would insist on me doing was much more stressful"
I can only sympathise with him.
Yet another Ppruner, asks: "What's the O in BOUMFISH/BOUMFAH?". I have not a clue. Perhaps he should Google it? Maybe if general aviation flying school checklists weren't so illogical and lengthy, confusing mnemonics would go out of vogue.
Yet another Ppruner makes the point: "probably can't blame the flying schools. CASA imagine the more items in a checklist the safer it is, and a lot of the time it is FOI's who dictate this stuff."
Comment: It is up to the CFI or chief pilot of the operation to have the bottle to refuse to acquiesce to the whims of particular FOI's who demand checklist items be added or changed to suit his personal opinion. Make sure of your facts first, of course. FOI's are not experts. They are just normal pilots like you or me except they are fortunate enough to have cushy secure government paid work. They are Public Servants. You are perfectly entitled to disagree with Public Servants.
Having learned a whole variety of mnemonics when I learned to fly, I have forgotten all except two. The first was PPUFF on final in a Tiger Moth which my brand new wet behind the ears Grade C (now called Grade 3) told me were "Killer" items. They stood for Pitch (not applicable). Power Poles. Undercarriage (not applicable). Flaps (not applicable). Feathered friends. Another instructor told me that was all bulldust and forget it. But how could I forget it when they were KILLER ITEMS?
Another instructor (seriously experienced with four gold bars on his shoulders, a BIG watch, a pair of BIG wings and a dinky coloured ID card dangling from his neck like one of those old grannies who have their spectacles hanging by a looped cord around their neck), well he told me to remember a mnemonic which I shall never forget and that was the wonderful MFFHHB.
Now I could never remember what each letter technically represented but I never forgot "My Friend Fred Has Hairy Balls" which, I was assured by that particular instructor, were the dreaded KILLER items before landing in a Tiger Moth. They stood for: Mixture. Fuel on. Flaps (not applicable but just in case I might fly a Boeing 747 one day in the future) Hatches. Harness. Brakes (not applicable in early Tiger Moths) In later years I wondered why airline pilots don't use mnemonics because they can be good fun.
One Pprune contributor to this thread said: "What was painfully annoying was flying with 7 or 8 different instructors up to CPL. Changing instructors every other flight was much more of a problem than a checklist. Read the list do the actions. Not that difficult.
Remembering all the little ridiculous things my multitude of instructors would insist on me doing was much more stressful"
I can only sympathise with him.
Yet another Ppruner, asks: "What's the O in BOUMFISH/BOUMFAH?". I have not a clue. Perhaps he should Google it? Maybe if general aviation flying school checklists weren't so illogical and lengthy, confusing mnemonics would go out of vogue.
Yet another Ppruner makes the point: "probably can't blame the flying schools. CASA imagine the more items in a checklist the safer it is, and a lot of the time it is FOI's who dictate this stuff."
Comment: It is up to the CFI or chief pilot of the operation to have the bottle to refuse to acquiesce to the whims of particular FOI's who demand checklist items be added or changed to suit his personal opinion. Make sure of your facts first, of course. FOI's are not experts. They are just normal pilots like you or me except they are fortunate enough to have cushy secure government paid work. They are Public Servants. You are perfectly entitled to disagree with Public Servants.
Gear down and locked in a fixed undercarriage light aircraft! Oh, how I don't miss those days but to be consistent, shouldn't instructors therefore be teaching to retract the gear as well? After all, where I work the QAR will sing a merry tune back to Ops if retraction is delayed beyond allowable tolerances. Then again, maybe I should bite my tongue...
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Yet another Ppruner, asks: "What's the O in BOUMFISH/BOUMFAH?". I have not a clue. Perhaps he should Google it? Maybe if general aviation flying school checklists weren't so illogical and lengthy, confusing mnemonics would go out of vogue.
The only thing Google will tell you is what OBUMMMFITCHH means. A checklist so fantastic that it tells you to both open and close carby heat.
Now surely if the mags and master were both on at the commencement of the flight they would still be on at the end? Seriously, does anyone turn mags off in flight? Master off may follow an electrical emergency but surely then it would stay off?
Weird ....
Weird ....
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Hmm
love it!
checking mags...not so critical in keyed mags, but button switch mags? did you bump it in the cruise?
whatever is in the checklist you use, orating it is not enough, you must ALWAYS confirm the action you are calling in your check...i reckon everyone here agree's.
As for the U in downwind. Ian Sharp taught me my power conversion, and he made a point with the U (I was training in a C150-A) that I look outside and confirm i could see a wheel, and also make him check we had a leg and a wheel. At least we knew neither had fallen off....yes guesswork when solo..........but as he said use all available assets.
Part of hi teaching with the U was to consider, and look for the gear lever...actually confirm you were in a fixed gear aeroplane, not just by rote.
I get to swap between a PA32-300 and a PA32R-300 with almost identical panels. (one has a tape deck the other has a cd player LOL) Not forgotten my feet yet.
Check is only as good as your application of it, otherwise its just unwanted wind
love it!
checking mags...not so critical in keyed mags, but button switch mags? did you bump it in the cruise?
whatever is in the checklist you use, orating it is not enough, you must ALWAYS confirm the action you are calling in your check...i reckon everyone here agree's.
As for the U in downwind. Ian Sharp taught me my power conversion, and he made a point with the U (I was training in a C150-A) that I look outside and confirm i could see a wheel, and also make him check we had a leg and a wheel. At least we knew neither had fallen off....yes guesswork when solo..........but as he said use all available assets.
Part of hi teaching with the U was to consider, and look for the gear lever...actually confirm you were in a fixed gear aeroplane, not just by rote.
I get to swap between a PA32-300 and a PA32R-300 with almost identical panels. (one has a tape deck the other has a cd player LOL) Not forgotten my feet yet.
Check is only as good as your application of it, otherwise its just unwanted wind
If you are a professional pilot and have so little situational awareness as to realise you are in either a fixed gear or retractable aircraft you may have bigger issues to consider...
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checklists on complex aircraft are a valid aide memoire. no problems on that.
in simple aircraft though they can be quite funny.
I have a friend who doesnt fly often because of CASA fears.
in his start checklist is "within 30 seconds check that you have oil pressure"
I've secretly timed him. among the fumbles of rust and the missing of which line he is at he reliably completes reading the entry in 1 and a half minutes.
but he IS using the checklists!
me, I use an old wartime mnemonic after startup.
ROGER, revs oil gyro electrics and radio.
revs set
oil showing activity
gyros spinning
electrics on
radio on and set.
you have no idea how easy it was to fly an aircraft before the advent of CASA.
in simple aircraft though they can be quite funny.
I have a friend who doesnt fly often because of CASA fears.
in his start checklist is "within 30 seconds check that you have oil pressure"
I've secretly timed him. among the fumbles of rust and the missing of which line he is at he reliably completes reading the entry in 1 and a half minutes.
but he IS using the checklists!
me, I use an old wartime mnemonic after startup.
ROGER, revs oil gyro electrics and radio.
revs set
oil showing activity
gyros spinning
electrics on
radio on and set.
you have no idea how easy it was to fly an aircraft before the advent of CASA.
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I learnt to fly at NZCH and before solo I had memorised the 112 pre engine start to post engine shutdown checklist for the circuit and none of this reading off a written checklist rubbish either.
Downwind was BUMP, Brakes, Undercarriage (fixed or down) Mixture (pump on, check pressure), Pitch (fixed or full fine).
Out of the circuit to the training area play ground it was FMHR. Fuel (change tanks if necessary), Harness on (they were never off; hatches were never opened in flight, funny that) and Radio (request joining instructions).
Turning Base, crank on the flap, Carb Heat on, set approach speed.
Finals, Carb Heat off, (cowls open if on a real aeroplane
), final instrument scan and reduce speed.
Why is everthing being complicated now. Watched a Youtube video of some guy READING their prestart checklist in a PA28. Took him ages. What is difficult with:
Brakes on
Fuel Fullest Tank
Mixture Rich
Carb heat cold (primer locked if used or checked if not)
Throttle Set
Master On
Fuel Pump On (check Pressure)
Clear PROP
and Crank
WHY does that need a written checklist? 35 years and it is still fresh in my memory. The only issue I did have was flying the same jump aircraft for 18 months and then climbing into something else. ATC replies included the jump aircraft callsign just from habit. After wrong reply number 3, I then looked at the rego that was located on the instrument panel before responding. Highly embarrassed as I considered myself a professional. A very good lesson for a 400hr TT beginner.
Downwind was BUMP, Brakes, Undercarriage (fixed or down) Mixture (pump on, check pressure), Pitch (fixed or full fine).
Out of the circuit to the training area play ground it was FMHR. Fuel (change tanks if necessary), Harness on (they were never off; hatches were never opened in flight, funny that) and Radio (request joining instructions).
Turning Base, crank on the flap, Carb Heat on, set approach speed.
Finals, Carb Heat off, (cowls open if on a real aeroplane
), final instrument scan and reduce speed.Why is everthing being complicated now. Watched a Youtube video of some guy READING their prestart checklist in a PA28. Took him ages. What is difficult with:
Brakes on
Fuel Fullest Tank
Mixture Rich
Carb heat cold (primer locked if used or checked if not)
Throttle Set
Master On
Fuel Pump On (check Pressure)
Clear PROP
and Crank
WHY does that need a written checklist? 35 years and it is still fresh in my memory. The only issue I did have was flying the same jump aircraft for 18 months and then climbing into something else. ATC replies included the jump aircraft callsign just from habit. After wrong reply number 3, I then looked at the rego that was located on the instrument panel before responding. Highly embarrassed as I considered myself a professional. A very good lesson for a 400hr TT beginner.
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Maybe if general aviation flying school checklists weren't so illogical and lengthy, confusing mnemonics would go out of vogue.
I'm pretty low hours, just started my training - so maybe I haven't yet realised this might be a joke you instructors are pulling on us, but this one really made me go.... what?
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In a fixed gear aeroplane, unless you can see the gear, including undercarriage in a checklist is bad training. All that is accomplished is that the student is trained to say the words without checking anything.
Far better to teach the use of undercarriage to control speed during the approach. Checklists, pre-determined points for lowering and warning systems are secondary defences. The primary defences should be, 'I need to slow down so I'll use the gear', or, 'I'm going faster than I normally would be for this situation, I should check the gear'.
The repeated reference to CAR 138 is quite boring. Nothing therein prevents items additional to the AFM unless also conflicting with the AFM, which I believe is the point of the thread.
Far better to teach the use of undercarriage to control speed during the approach. Checklists, pre-determined points for lowering and warning systems are secondary defences. The primary defences should be, 'I need to slow down so I'll use the gear', or, 'I'm going faster than I normally would be for this situation, I should check the gear'.
The repeated reference to CAR 138 is quite boring. Nothing therein prevents items additional to the AFM unless also conflicting with the AFM, which I believe is the point of the thread.
Comment: It is up to the CFI or chief pilot of the operation to have the bottle to refuse to acquiesce to the whims of particular FOI's
You speak in jest, of course !!! Don't you??
That is exactly what what got Polar Air./Butson into so much very expensive (~aud$1M) trouble, disagreeing with an FOI about being required to carry out very dangerous asymmetric training, for which the aircraft was not certified.
There are quite a few other examples.
Tootle pip!!
I was taught from C150 days to always pay homage to the undercarraige God.
By the way, It should not be "undercarriage down".
It should be "undercarriage welded down" in a fixed gear aircraft.
With retractables, it should be "undercarriage selected down", and your hand should not leave the lever until you can honestly say to yourself after watching the lights come on: "three greens, undercarriage down."
By the way, It should not be "undercarriage down".
It should be "undercarriage welded down" in a fixed gear aircraft.
With retractables, it should be "undercarriage selected down", and your hand should not leave the lever until you can honestly say to yourself after watching the lights come on: "three greens, undercarriage down."
Overly complex checklists in a simple aircraft are sometimes used "because it is preparing the student for more complex aircraft."
Horsefeathers.
Why include "Hatches and harnesses" in the pre-landing checks of an aircraft that cannot open a hatch or door in flight, and you never take your harness off??
Why include "Frictions - as required" for the cyclic and collective friction in the chopper, when you cannot have arrived on downwind from a cruise or climb if the frictions are ON??
Why keep "Compass - slaved" in the checks when we NEVER move the switch from Slaved to Free, and having checked it in the pre-start checks, there is no further need to look at it? And anyway, with the new glass screens, this switch has disappeared, and the standby gyro doesn't have a slave switch either.
If we are REALLY training for bigger machines, why don't the skid-equipped aircraft have a check for retracting after takeoff and lowering before landing?
Keep it REEEEEALLY simple, remove superfluous fluff.
Horsefeathers.
Why include "Hatches and harnesses" in the pre-landing checks of an aircraft that cannot open a hatch or door in flight, and you never take your harness off??
Why include "Frictions - as required" for the cyclic and collective friction in the chopper, when you cannot have arrived on downwind from a cruise or climb if the frictions are ON??
Why keep "Compass - slaved" in the checks when we NEVER move the switch from Slaved to Free, and having checked it in the pre-start checks, there is no further need to look at it? And anyway, with the new glass screens, this switch has disappeared, and the standby gyro doesn't have a slave switch either.
If we are REALLY training for bigger machines, why don't the skid-equipped aircraft have a check for retracting after takeoff and lowering before landing?
Keep it REEEEEALLY simple, remove superfluous fluff.
Why include "Hatches and harnesses" in the pre-landing checks of an aircraft that cannot open a hatch or door in flight, and you never take your harness off??
Hatches is definitely important on the ground. My second area solo I hadn't latched the door properly and it popped open on the way out to the training area. Seeing the ground straight below sure freaked me out!
I do agree with questioning it's necessity pre-landing. At least in all the aircraft I have flown, any hatches that can be open for flight could be open for landing. Anything else shouldn't be touched so shouldn't have changed since you checked it pre-takeoff