Credit of Flight Time - Safety Pilot 737
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Credit of Flight Time - Safety Pilot 737
There is some disagreement about whether or not it is a legal requirement for a pilot to log co-pilot time when rostered for duty as safety pilot during the training of a new first officer on line. The definition of "Safety Pilot" is not published in Civil Aviation Safety Authority - CASR Part 61 - Flight crew licensing which deals with Pilots Log Books - General guidance and Crediting of Flight Time.
The following definitions are relevant to the question.
Co-Pilot Includes all flight time as co-pilot or second officer. Time spent as designated crew rest during a flight CANNOT be credited towards co-pilot time.
Co-pilot
means all flight time while serving in any piloting capacity other than as pilot in command.
............................................................ ............................
The question arises where a qualified endorsed pilot on type (say B737/ A320 for example) is rostered to fly in an observer's seat to act as so called "Safety Pilot" while a training captain is engaged in training a new first officer up until the time that the first officer has completed his on-line instruction and is certified to operate as first officer.
One interpretation is the safety pilot is an operating member of the flight crew subject to the company flight and duty limitations and is entitled or required to log time as safety pilot in his log book column as co-pilot time. This is consistent with both definitions above.
An opposing view is he is not an operating pilot because he does not occupy a control seat and thus is not required by legislation to log any sort of flight time as safety pilot.
One presumes the purpose for rostering of a safety pilot is to take command of the aircraft should the captain become incapacitated, since the rostered first officer has yet to be certified competent to take command should the captain become incapacitated.
Your views gleaned from interpretation of the relevant CASA orders would be appreciated. One CASA FOI when contacted said safety pilot time is not to be logged. Another former CASA FOI says the exercising of the privileges of a pilots licence applies only to those occupying a control seat. So although the concept of having a safety pilot for the above reasons has been long standing, there is no shortage of personal opinions re logging or otherwise. This suggests the relevant CASA documentation needs revising because of deficient original drafting.
The following definitions are relevant to the question.
Co-Pilot Includes all flight time as co-pilot or second officer. Time spent as designated crew rest during a flight CANNOT be credited towards co-pilot time.
Co-pilot
means all flight time while serving in any piloting capacity other than as pilot in command.
............................................................ ............................
The question arises where a qualified endorsed pilot on type (say B737/ A320 for example) is rostered to fly in an observer's seat to act as so called "Safety Pilot" while a training captain is engaged in training a new first officer up until the time that the first officer has completed his on-line instruction and is certified to operate as first officer.
One interpretation is the safety pilot is an operating member of the flight crew subject to the company flight and duty limitations and is entitled or required to log time as safety pilot in his log book column as co-pilot time. This is consistent with both definitions above.
An opposing view is he is not an operating pilot because he does not occupy a control seat and thus is not required by legislation to log any sort of flight time as safety pilot.
One presumes the purpose for rostering of a safety pilot is to take command of the aircraft should the captain become incapacitated, since the rostered first officer has yet to be certified competent to take command should the captain become incapacitated.
Your views gleaned from interpretation of the relevant CASA orders would be appreciated. One CASA FOI when contacted said safety pilot time is not to be logged. Another former CASA FOI says the exercising of the privileges of a pilots licence applies only to those occupying a control seat. So although the concept of having a safety pilot for the above reasons has been long standing, there is no shortage of personal opinions re logging or otherwise. This suggests the relevant CASA documentation needs revising because of deficient original drafting.
A357575,
As with much of the CARs and CASRs, it is a mess.
However, look at it from say, Jetstar's point of view: If the position of safety pilot is not recognized by CASA, then he/she can be rostered H24/7, think of the productivity.
In the old QF system, the time was recorded by the records system as if the safety pilot was the operating F/O, with the totals of co-pilot and Total Aeronautical Experience added to as "normal".
I have never understood the anal approach taken to anything to do with pilot's logging time in Australia. For gaaaadds sake, please don't start on ICUS again.
Tootle pip!!
As with much of the CARs and CASRs, it is a mess.
However, look at it from say, Jetstar's point of view: If the position of safety pilot is not recognized by CASA, then he/she can be rostered H24/7, think of the productivity.
In the old QF system, the time was recorded by the records system as if the safety pilot was the operating F/O, with the totals of co-pilot and Total Aeronautical Experience added to as "normal".
I have never understood the anal approach taken to anything to do with pilot's logging time in Australia. For gaaaadds sake, please don't start on ICUS again.
Tootle pip!!
Moderator
Surely if the airline Ops Manual or CAR217 system required a safety pilot until a new FO achieved a prescribed level of competence, the required, rostered safety pilot is an integral member of the operating crew and should log FO flight and duty time?
What I think is the key is the assignment of the duty by the operator, which is different to the same person sitting on a jumpseat hitching a ride without being assigned a duty. In an international context, this is the EASA policy (CAP 804 Section 1 Part E Page 13)
Pilot on flight deck but not as P1, P2, SPO or FE not assigned a duty, they would log the time as SNY (Supernumerary).
Pilot on flight deck but not as P1, P2, SPO or FE assigned the duty of Pilot supervising Co-pilot activities, they would log the time as P2 (co-pilot).
In the Australian context, I would think given the OPERATOR has assigned the duty, and that CASA directs pilots to log flight time (CAR 5.52) "in the interests of the safety of air navigation".
The definition "control seat" does not ring a bell with me. I am not aware of any regulation that says a pilot must be in the front, left, right, aft, control, supernumerary seat in order to log flight time. Many people log flight time legally when they are asleep in the bunk.
I do not know this particular airlines manuals, however some airlines also require the safety pilot to take the control seat in LWO.
Pilot on flight deck but not as P1, P2, SPO or FE not assigned a duty, they would log the time as SNY (Supernumerary).
Pilot on flight deck but not as P1, P2, SPO or FE assigned the duty of Pilot supervising Co-pilot activities, they would log the time as P2 (co-pilot).
In the Australian context, I would think given the OPERATOR has assigned the duty, and that CASA directs pilots to log flight time (CAR 5.52) "in the interests of the safety of air navigation".
The definition "control seat" does not ring a bell with me. I am not aware of any regulation that says a pilot must be in the front, left, right, aft, control, supernumerary seat in order to log flight time. Many people log flight time legally when they are asleep in the bunk.
I do not know this particular airlines manuals, however some airlines also require the safety pilot to take the control seat in LWO.
What does a Check Captain sitting in the jump seat conducting a route check log?
He's not in a control seat - I don't see that point as relevant - but is certainly entitled to log it, and as Command time.
So, to answer the initial query, the Safety Pilot is entitled to log it as F/O time (assuming it is an F/O so rostered).
He's not in a control seat - I don't see that point as relevant - but is certainly entitled to log it, and as Command time.
So, to answer the initial query, the Safety Pilot is entitled to log it as F/O time (assuming it is an F/O so rostered).
Surely if the airline Ops Manual or CAR217 system required a safety pilot until a new FO achieved a prescribed level of competence, the required, rostered safety pilot is an integral member of the operating crew and should log FO flight and duty time?
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Lets move on to something slightly different then.
Heavy crew ops, augumented flight crew. Captain, Relief Captain, First officer.
Now, it's clear, the Captain can log all flight time as P1, even when in the bunk, as there is legally only 1 PIC
The F/O logs co-pilot P2 time.
What does the relief Captain log? Based on the assumption that during the flight, he occupies the left and right seat when others are taking rest.
Is it logged always as co-pilot, even when sitting on the left seat, when the official PIC is on rest. Or is it logged as PIC when on the left and co-pilot when on the right seat?
Lets start the debate
Heavy crew ops, augumented flight crew. Captain, Relief Captain, First officer.
Now, it's clear, the Captain can log all flight time as P1, even when in the bunk, as there is legally only 1 PIC
The F/O logs co-pilot P2 time.
What does the relief Captain log? Based on the assumption that during the flight, he occupies the left and right seat when others are taking rest.
Is it logged always as co-pilot, even when sitting on the left seat, when the official PIC is on rest. Or is it logged as PIC when on the left and co-pilot when on the right seat?
Lets start the debate
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Exactly right there can only be one person in command. Anyone else logs co-pilot time including the check captain (provided they are in the control seat), if they are in the jump and a fully qualified crew are operating the checkie doesn't log anything at all. However as I have understood it, safety FOs weren't allowed to log the flight time either, but they are on duty and so should be regulated by CAO48/FRMS.
With a fully augmented crew. Even the second officers log co-pilot time for the entire duration of the flight (not that it counts for much anyway). Not sure about a relief captain but I would still think he/she would log co-pilot time.
With a fully augmented crew. Even the second officers log co-pilot time for the entire duration of the flight (not that it counts for much anyway). Not sure about a relief captain but I would still think he/she would log co-pilot time.
Altimeters,
Unless something has changed recently, Qantas long haul does not have relief Captains, usually just a Captain, FO and two SO. The FO is command qualified for in-flight relief.
The Captain logs PIC.
The FO logs co-pilot, unless he is the pilot flying, when he/she logs AICUS.
The SOs log co-pilot time.
If that has changed recently (its been as above since 1970s, from memory) some one will let us know.
Tootle pip!!
Unless something has changed recently, Qantas long haul does not have relief Captains, usually just a Captain, FO and two SO. The FO is command qualified for in-flight relief.
The Captain logs PIC.
The FO logs co-pilot, unless he is the pilot flying, when he/she logs AICUS.
The SOs log co-pilot time.
If that has changed recently (its been as above since 1970s, from memory) some one will let us know.
Tootle pip!!
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Under EU-OPS, JAR-OPS or what ever it is called this week,
Designated commander : The designated commander of the aeroplane may log as pilot in
command all the time. This includes rest taken on board.
Co-Pilot :
– The Co-pilot of the aeroplane may log as co-pilot all the time he acts as co-pilot whilst sitting in a pilots seat.
– First Officers acting as Inflight Relief Pilots can log PIC/US all the time he occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as pilot-in- command. All other time whilst occupying a pilots seat. will be logged as co-pilot.
– Captains acting as co-pilots, may log as PIC all of the flight time during which he relieves the Commander taking in-flight rest.
– A designated co-pilot (Captain or First officer) may not log as Flight time any periods during which he does not occupy a pilot’s seat.
– The holder of an instructor rating may log as a pilot-in-command all flight time during which he occupies a pilots seat and acts an examiner in an aeroplane.
– The holder of an examiner’s authorisation may log as pilot-in-command all flight time during which he occupies a pilots seat and acts as an examiner in an aeroplane.
Designated commander : The designated commander of the aeroplane may log as pilot in
command all the time. This includes rest taken on board.
Co-Pilot :
– The Co-pilot of the aeroplane may log as co-pilot all the time he acts as co-pilot whilst sitting in a pilots seat.
– First Officers acting as Inflight Relief Pilots can log PIC/US all the time he occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as pilot-in- command. All other time whilst occupying a pilots seat. will be logged as co-pilot.
– Captains acting as co-pilots, may log as PIC all of the flight time during which he relieves the Commander taking in-flight rest.
– A designated co-pilot (Captain or First officer) may not log as Flight time any periods during which he does not occupy a pilot’s seat.
– The holder of an instructor rating may log as a pilot-in-command all flight time during which he occupies a pilots seat and acts an examiner in an aeroplane.
– The holder of an examiner’s authorisation may log as pilot-in-command all flight time during which he occupies a pilots seat and acts as an examiner in an aeroplane.
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Sleeve of wizard, I believe you are correct also.
I have read this in the JAA/EASA regs.
Australian CASA does not state this however.
But after sending 2 emails to CASA Australia, I got 2 separate replies with totally 2 different answers.
One saying, it can be logged PIC, when in the left seat relieving the official PIC, and the other answer saying that there is only 1 PIC on the flight, therefore all time whether in left seat or right seat and being PIC when on duty or not, is to be logged as co-pilot.
So as I see it, the answer varies depending on the CAA you work with and the airline you work for and depending if its Australia or Europe!
As I see it, whether employed as a Relief Captain or Cruise Captain, what ever you want to call it, and in QF's case, they call it a Senior F/O,who has the authority to act as PIC, Then this time can be logged as PIC or Co-Pilot.
What's makes this whole thing confusing is that there is no international standard.
Lets face it, our logbooks were not designed for modern times.
We really should have 2 columns in the book,one PIC and the other Commander.
Anyone else working for QF care to comment?
I have read this in the JAA/EASA regs.
Australian CASA does not state this however.
But after sending 2 emails to CASA Australia, I got 2 separate replies with totally 2 different answers.
One saying, it can be logged PIC, when in the left seat relieving the official PIC, and the other answer saying that there is only 1 PIC on the flight, therefore all time whether in left seat or right seat and being PIC when on duty or not, is to be logged as co-pilot.
So as I see it, the answer varies depending on the CAA you work with and the airline you work for and depending if its Australia or Europe!
As I see it, whether employed as a Relief Captain or Cruise Captain, what ever you want to call it, and in QF's case, they call it a Senior F/O,who has the authority to act as PIC, Then this time can be logged as PIC or Co-Pilot.
What's makes this whole thing confusing is that there is no international standard.
Lets face it, our logbooks were not designed for modern times.
We really should have 2 columns in the book,one PIC and the other Commander.
Anyone else working for QF care to comment?
No F/O in Qantas log command time when the Captain is off, they log ICUS for legs they fly and do all decisions for (according to CRM). For Captains sector they log copilot. Designated Captains log command. Second officers, or extra Capt/FO log copilot. While doing final command checks the trainee in left seat logs ICUS and the supervising check Captain logs command.
Bottums Up
Why would one want to log time in the jump seat, safety pilot or not? It's not as if there are any piloting controls available.
I agree safety pilot time should count towards duty time, and overtime thresholds (if any) but basically a safety pilot is there incase the trainee can't cope, and needs to be replaced for the safe continuance of the flight. Aren't they?
I agree safety pilot time should count towards duty time, and overtime thresholds (if any) but basically a safety pilot is there incase the trainee can't cope, and needs to be replaced for the safe continuance of the flight. Aren't they?
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Tankengine, whats the point of an F/O logging ICUS unless he needs the hours for the issue of an ATPL ?
Once an ATPL has been issued, at the end of the day, ICUS is just another term for co-pilot time.
When going for a job, no employer will consider ICUS time as command time.
Once an ATPL has been issued, at the end of the day, ICUS is just another term for co-pilot time.
When going for a job, no employer will consider ICUS time as command time.
Originally Posted by Clarrie
Why would one want to log time in the jump seat, safety pilot or not? It's not as if there are any piloting controls available.
If you can log it, you should. You never know when those hours might help you beat another applicant.
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 20th Feb 2014 at 00:32. Reason: Correcting jibberish. Shouldn't Prune before brekkie.