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The Empire Strikes Back! on Colour Defective Pilots

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The Empire Strikes Back! on Colour Defective Pilots

Old 29th Jun 2014, 12:41
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You just don't get it do you. I haven't made any CVD claims, so there's nothing to back up.

let me assure you that there isn't any 'ganging up' Doc.
Then you must be the same person.
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Old 29th Jun 2014, 12:49
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Then you must be the same person.
Proof positive - You really are an idiot.
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Old 29th Jun 2014, 12:55
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I see. So you and your mate Creampuff can make all sorts of incorrect comments on who you think I am and where you think I work, and that's OK?
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Old 29th Jun 2014, 21:39
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Errrrmmmm

I haven't made any comments on who I think you are ausdoc, and I don't care who you are.

And I don't know who 004wercras is, and I don't care who s/he is.

You are running a classic 'false dichotomy' interference, ausdoc. We can "debate" the medical issue or we can research the claimed qualifications and expertise of the people whose opinions have caused the controversy.

In fact, it is perfectly reasonable and appropriate to do both, because the latter is relevant to the merits of the arguments made during the former. That's why the AAT said this:
“We do not consider this aspect of (the PMO’s) evidence to have been well-supported or well-reasoned and we formed the impression that (it) may well have been influenced by his desire to justify the decision he had made ... We were also troubled by the significant differences between the opinions expressed in the (PMO’s) statement of 8 October 2013 … and his oral evidence.”
Further, and more importantly in the context of this thread and your intervention, there's actually no "debate" going on about the medical issue. The purpose of this thread is to rally support to ensure that scaremongering zealots with other people's money to spend don't prevail over the hard evidence.

Last edited by Creampuff; 29th Jun 2014 at 21:54.
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Old 29th Jun 2014, 22:24
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Time, Gentlemen. PLEASE !!

Sunday morning, fat, dumb and happy; established at suitable flight level for a day off and what do I find Monday - toys hurled out the pram, the dog covered in the gods only know what, pizza boxes scattered everywhere and there's something really nasty stuck to the television screen. Now I can see who started it, done it before, with a record number of threads locked after last comments posted. So, before Tidy Bin Billy turns up and puts a padlock on the toy box, lets clean up a bit.

There is always a couple of pages of 'mess' in any long running thread, hair pulling, bitch slapping and sniper attacks. Used to get 'trolls-for-hire' on here of all flavours, distracting and muddying the waters; but, we've seen them off before and kept the discussion alive.

Good landings begin with a good approach, a few bumps on final just don't signify. I just ignore them, being as they are usually of short duration.

At an early point, as when any major conflict seems to be drawing to a close, it may be necessary to declare a form of “ceasefire” to ensure that the processes of reform are not further clouded by hyperactive over-regulation on the part of individuals or groups. We have in fact already heard reports of harassment that seem to suggest the reopening of old and not fully healed wounds, and some recent “initiatives” in the medical and airworthiness areas also appear to be indicative of a scorched earth philosophy. Surely any new regulatory interpretations or enforcement activity should receive close scrutiny for non-compliance with published procedures, due diligence, procedural fairness and the rule of law. Phelan
Now, where was I? – Oh yes, the Shambollic system of medieval medicinal practices and the one part of the NZ regulations, we don't want to import.

Toot toot. (Makes sign to ward off the dreaded "Click").

Last edited by Kharon; 29th Jun 2014 at 22:34. Reason: Steady the Buffs..
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Old 30th Jun 2014, 08:55
  #286 (permalink)  
 
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Folks,
I apologies in advance for a slight thread drift.
Creamie,
Don't knock (formerly) Hizonna Marcus Einfled's old alma mater, it's one of the longest running post boxes at Manhattan Beach, Los Angeles.
Pacific Western University (one and the same) provided PhD's for all Werner Von Brauns "other ranks" when the east coast intelligentsia wouldn't deal with anybody not "suitable qualified". It was Ben Rich, from the Lockheed Skunk Works who got the idea, and organised a job lot of PhDs, probably got a bulk discount. Suddenly, Corporal Schmidt became Herr Doctor Schmidt, problem of perception of competence solved.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 30th Jun 2014, 10:53
  #287 (permalink)  
 
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Productive helping.

Hi guys,

A petition to get the Minister Warren Truss to intervene has just gone up, please sign this and it can be confidential so no one has to worry about CASA retribution!!

https://www.change.org/en-AU/petitio...eds-of-careers
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Old 30th Jun 2014, 12:13
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Petition to Minister Truss

The CVDPA folk have launched a petition calling for Minister Truss to intervene in the current dispute:

Petition to the Hon Warren Truss MP (Deputy Prime Minister & Minister for Infrastructure & Regional Development): To Intervene in the battle between colour defective pilots and CASA which threatens to destroy hundreds of careers

In June 2014, the Aviation Medicine Branch (AvMed) of CASA made radical changes to its implementation of the Aviation Colour Perception Standard (ACPS). Policies that had been in place for over twenty years and which had flowed from two landmark rulings by the Administrative Appeals Tribunal (AAT) were suddenly and without notice abandoned, the new policies involving draconian restrictions the likes of which had not been seen in Australia for over half a century. In line with these new policies a number of colour vision defective (CVD) pilots, upon renewing their medical certificates, found they faced restrictions that made participation in professional aviation a practical impossibility. In addition, the new policies effectively closed off all pathways to a professional piloting career for new applicants with CVD.

The changes in the policies governing the implementation the ACPS were justified by the Principal Medical Officer (PMO) in the following statement he made in a letter to all Designated Aviation Medical Examiners (DAMEs): Recent medical research indicates that the safety-related implications of an individual's CVD may be more significant than they were initially considered to be.” The letter to DAMEs was repeated in similar letters to CVD pilots and to all Australian AOC holders (the pilots’ employers), both containing the same claim as to “recent medical research”. This claim is not supported by any published evidence of unsafe performance by pilots with a CVD condition. Indeed, all the available evidence from both Australia and the USA is that the performance of CVD pilots is as safe as that of other pilots who do not have such a CVD condition. At the very least, there is no evidence of unsafe performance by any CVD pilots as a consequence of their CVD condition.

The reversal of policies that were based on the findings of the two AAT decisions is a serious matter, and even more so when seen in the light of a twenty five year period of incident and accident-free performance at all levels, private and professional, by CVD pilots since those landmark decisions were handed down. These hearings are widely recognised, even today, as the most comprehensive and impartial examination of all aspects of the ACPS, that has ever been conducted in any place and at any time.

Not only do the changes in these policies amount to a denial of the AAT findings of 25 years ago, they are even more bizarre and baffling when it is realised that a new appeal by a CVD pilot had already been lodged before the AAT and was due for a hearing in July 2014. Preparation and documentation by both parties of the evidence for that hearing were well advanced when CASA dropped this bombshell.

The trio of CASA’s letters to DAMEs, CVD pilots and AOC holders have been widely condemned by many industry participants as a blatant form of institutional bullying. As well, the taking away and then the re-instatement of “privileges”, within a span of mere days, of a number of CVD professional pilots has led to widespread industry outrage. Were it not so serious, it is quite farcical, and further exacerbates the broad lack of trust in CASA within the industry.

We petition Minister Truss to:

1. Direct CASA to immediately retract the letters sent to DAMEs, AOC holders and CVD pilots and appropriately sanction those responsible for these letters.

2. Direct CASA to immediately reverse the recent changes in policy that threaten the careers of hundreds of pilots and severely restrict new CVD pilots from being able to enter the aviation industry.

3. In the event that CASA is allowed to continue pursuing this matter through the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, that public funding be made available so that once again, a fair, thorough and unbiased re-test of the established tenet can be presented.

4. To fund a study into the practical relevance of the aviation colour perception standard and its scientific basis so that Australia can continue to lead the rest of the world on this issue, as we have done for the past 25 years.
SIGN HERE

Last edited by brissypilot; 30th Jun 2014 at 12:45.
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Old 30th Jun 2014, 16:28
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Please get on there and sign the petition. You don't have to display your details either if you fear retribution.

This is more than just about CVD. There are many conditions that could receive the same treatment.
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Old 1st Jul 2014, 07:42
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Get involved

They do have a very big Ace up their sleeve: The cognitive bias of ignorant punters (or, in pprunespeak, ‘the mystique of aviation’).

Imagine, if you will, an ordinary line of punters shuffling on board an ordinary RPT jet service from A to B. On the flight deck the pilots are going through the usual checklists and sipping orange juice.

After the aircraft takes off and reaches cruise altitude, the ‘seatbelt’ sign is switched off. An ordinary-looking passenger unclips his seatbelt and moves from passenger to passenger, whispering: “Pssssst. I’m from CASA and I think pilots with colour vision deficiencies could be a risk to air safety. How does that make you feel?”

If the punters were well-informed, they’d say: “Are you the idiot that let both pilots drink orange juice from the same source? Make yourself useful and find a competent doctor to closely monitor the pilots for symptoms of food poisoning. Then do us all a favour and sit down and STFU.”

Alas, the punters are not well-informed. Their response is: “WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE IN A 30,000 FOOT DEATH PLUNGE! PLEASE CASA PLEASE: SAVE US FROM COLOUR BLIND PILOTS.

Enter our regulatory ‘saviours’.

That’s the exquisite irony of “evidence-based risk management” as a justification for increased regulatory meddling in matters medical. If the aviation medical certification system was indeed based on hard evidence and objective risk, there’d be less regulatory meddling in matters medical and more focus on the matters that the hard evidence demonstrates are the substantive risks to aviation safety. Unfortunately, our regulatory ‘saviours’ know that although mum, dad and the kids couldn’t care less if the petrol tanker behind them on the highway is being driven by someone who hasn’t seen his toes or a doctor in a decade, they’ll be scared sh*tless if the aviation regulator’s opinion is that the pilot of their jet to Melbourne has a colour vision defect that ‘could’ be a risk to air safety.

Get involved people, or a bureaucrat on an unjustified medical crusade will be meddling unnecessarily in your life next.
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Old 1st Jul 2014, 12:52
  #291 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately this is absolutely true;


Unfortunately, our regulatory ‘saviours’ know that although mum, dad and the kids couldn’t care less if the petrol tanker behind them on the highway is being driven by someone who hasn’t seen his toes or a doctor in a decade, they’ll be scared sh*tless if the aviation regulator’s opinion is that the pilot of their jet to Melbourne has a colour vision defect that ‘could’ be a risk to air safety.


Due to a chronic medical condition my ability to exercise the privileges of my licence have been withdrawn as a result of the cancellation of my class 1 and 2 medical, however the Road Traffic Authority have allowed me to retain my Heavy Combination Drivers licence a clear set of regulatory double standards.
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Old 1st Jul 2014, 22:19
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USA Pilot's Bill of Rights!

We need political support as well as petitions. A "Champion of General Aviation" in the Parliament is needed..

Senator Inhofe Outlines New Pilot’s Bill of Rights
Senator James Inhofe (R-Okla.) has released a draft of a new Pilot’s Bill of Rights. “The goal of Pilot’s Bill of Rights 2 is to continue addressing unfair practices and regulations toward the aviation industry,” Inhofe said. Among the issues that the bill seeks to change are expanding the LSA third-class medical exemption to cover pilots flying small general aviation aircraft; requiring Customs and Border Protection officers to follow general law-enforcement standards when exercising CBP powers in stops of general aviation pilots and searches of their aircraft; making it illegal for the FAA to enforce Notam violations if the FAA doesn’t finish its Notam improvement program by year-end; providing civil liability protection for aviation medical examiners, designated pilot examiners and designated airworthiness representatives; facilitating means of allowing safety-enhancing equipment to be installed on aircraft without lengthy certification processes; and updating language in the current Pilot’s Bill of Rights to include new rights such as requiring the FAA to notify individuals when they are subject to investigation, limiting the scope of document requests to pertinent issues being investigated and reinstating the expungement policy that would prevent the FAA from keeping enforcement action records after five years.
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Old 1st Jul 2014, 22:27
  #293 (permalink)  
 
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Creamy: “Get involved people…

….or a bureaucrat on an unjustified medical crusade will be meddling unnecessarily in your life next…”
Take heed of the Creamy statement and get on-board the CVD petition, the numbers are past 500 but they need many more…

And if you thought this was solely a little old Oz issue, think again as CVD pilots worldwide are taking notice of the CAsA PMO’s draconian attempt to take us back to the Dark Ages…

Recent petition Comments:my husband is a pilot and my son wants to be one but is slightly colour blind. my husband doesn't believe his inpairment would affect his ability to fly.I am an airline pilot for Air NZ, my son, all he wants to do more than anything is to become a pilot. he is colour blind, but he plans to try his hardest to become a pilot for a major airline. he's 10 years old now, and I sure hope once he's old enough there will be the opportunity for his dreams to come true.I am a second generation pilot. My nephew is CVD but has commenced his flight training regardless. He has never wanted to be anything else other than a pilot like his Grandfather, his Father and myself, his Uncle. He should be allowed the same potential future as we have already enjoyed in our own careers and lives. Passion for aviation should never be punished but encouraged and mentored. I am a mildly color vision deficient pilot training for my Commercial and Instrument ratings as we speak. I have none and never had any issues with many night hours in my logbook and in all types of conditions. I even meet the current standard, but had to go through many years of stress and extra hundreds of dollars to get my unrestricted medical certificate from the FAA, and now I always have to worry if they are going to change the requirements in the future which could potentially cause my career to end. I have invested thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars to train, and to have it all stolen from me on the basis of the opinion a of few pencil pushing NON PILOTS who know nothing about flying and are simply defending their PhD's while trying to SELL a new color vision test is nothing short of highway robbery, abuse of power, and discrimination of the highest order.

I know MANY color vision deficient pilots in the USA with 1000's of hours in jets of all types, many decades of experience, and 0 issues. I even meet the standard, but the price has been high, and I am supporting this to defend the future of our careers, human rights, and fairness in general.

"Normal's" don't have to pay the extra money, time, sweat, and stress to jump through these hoops, so neither should someone who can't tell lime green from chartreuse. Pilots are not interior designers and do not need perfect color vision at all. If nothing else, they should design color out of the system entirely, as it is already redundant in its current design. With the technology of today, they could probably do this for every single technical career field out there.


The PMO Russian Roulette who'll be next??

TICK..TOCK..TIME Miniscule!
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Old 2nd Jul 2014, 21:24
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The search for Nirvana. Part II.

Many of the more pragmatic, sanguine submissions to the ASRR make polite, if pointed reference to the many issues surrounding the Avmed department. Personally I found the Maitland submission to be of great value, being balanced, succinct and very much grounded in experience. If for no other reason it is well worth a quiet read, the medical section (f) 4 sets out the issues and in part (between the lines) offers a solution.

Extract - EW. John Maitland. Part (f) Aviation medicine.

By far the most common complaint I receive regarding the processes and administration by CASA officials is in relation to Aviation Medicine.

Problems arise when a pilot fails to meet the requirements of the relevant table set out in CASR 67.150 (for class 1) or CASR 67.155 (for class 2). CASR

CASR 67.180 provides a mechanism by which a pilot who fails to meet the medical standards set out in CASR 67.150 or CASR 67.155 may still be issued with an aviation medical certificate if CASA is satisfied that issuing a medical certificate to the applicant would not endanger the safety of air navigation.

A dispute often arises in situations where the applicant may have suffered a medical condition which his or her medical specialist has determined will not affect his or her ability to safe! y operate an aeroplane, but notwithstanding the assessment by the medical specialist in the field, CASA aviation medicine will often ignore the specialists' expertise and advices; and refuse or cancel the applicant's aviation medical certificate.
The submission made by - Dr Rob Liddell – is directly related to the CVD issue and also worthy of a coffee and a quiet think. The second paragraph (IMO) nails down the really important issue. An incorrigible operator, such as Hempel could not be prevented, no matter what the 'regulations' say. The Hempel medical farce was simply a distraction from the underlying elements of the case. Even so, the regulator and the PMO were not embarrassed; they should have been. But the vast majority of pilots are mostly 'self regulating' as a matter of professional pride and operational maturity; it is grossly unfair that this ethos is suspected or dismissed. Trusted with many lives, over many miles to operate safely and legally; but not trusted to realise when they are too ill to fly. It's bollocks; actually it's real Pony Pooh; Shambollic style.

Extract - The dangerous result of CASA’s draconian regulatory measures is that now many pilots tell CASA as little as possible about any medical problems in order to protect themselves from expensive and repetitive investigations or possible loss of certification . Most pilots are responsible people and they have no desire to be in charge of an aircraft if their risk of incapacity is unacceptable. When their DAME and their specialist believe they meet the risk target for certification without endless further testing demanded by CASA and the advice of their own specialist is ignored by the regulator then the pilot’s lose confidence in the regulator.

In medical certification CASA appears to have lost sight of the fact that all pilots self-certify themselves fit to fly every day they take control of an aircraft. The only day in the year when a doctor has any control over their fitness to fly is the day that they have their medical examination.
The RAAA submission touches on the frustration of operators; I'd like to see the figures on how many roster changes are made due to a medical revalidation expiring before the new certificate reaches to applicant. I know it's not just me chasing down a certificate close to deadline – can't fly without it.

Extract - The medical certification seems to involve a large amount of second guessing the Designated Medical Examiners (DMEs) and demanding more expensive additional tests and re-examinations. Is there any good reason why DMEs in Australia cannot be authorised to actually issue the Medical Certificate as UK Authorised Medical Examiners are – even to the extent of issuing a UK/JAA medical here in Australia? It is the opinion of many in the industry that the medical section of CASA needs a complete overhaul.
Anyway, for what it's worth, it is clear that Avmed need to be revamped and taken forward to the twentieth century and not regress any further toward the nineteenth style of bureaucracy, made infamous by colonial administrators, before the damage being inflicted becomes irreparable without huge amounts of time, trouble and money being wasted.

It's not just CVD, no siree; hair loss and flatulence are next; after 'funny turns' that is....High priority, big ticket items so don't say I didn't warn you.

Toot toot.
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Old 2nd Jul 2014, 21:58
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Is there any good reason why DMEs in Australia cannot be authorised to actually issue the Medical Certificate as UK Authorised Medical Examiners are
This has already started (for Class 2 at least). There is a trial going as we speak, with DAMEs issuing certificates, and will be expanded once the system has been confirmed as robust. A lot of DAMEs around the country have done the training for this over the last few months.

There are a couple of concerns though:
  • More than half of the 700 or so DAMEs do less than 20 medicals per year (is that enough to be good at the risk assessment part of issuing a certificate?)
  • Less that 20% of DAMEs currently meet their mandatory ongoing education requirements to maintain their delegation
  • A lot of the DAMEs I've spoken to have reservations about the system, as when they issue the certificate, they take on the liability if something goes wrong. At the moment, my medical indemnity insurer has said that it won't increase my premium, but it is likely to following the first case.

Last edited by ausdoc; 2nd Jul 2014 at 22:14.
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Old 2nd Jul 2014, 22:47
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Ausdoc, an objective question: can you direct me to research (peer reviewed) that shows that pilots who have a cvd are less safe than non-cvd pilots.

I have spent days trying to search for such a reference, but have been unable to find any. What I would point out is that globally there have been millions of flight hours flown by cvd pilots and not one accident or incident recorded where a cvd has been shown as a cause. This would suggest a very strong case that a cvd is not a threat to flight safety.

Last edited by Anthill; 2nd Jul 2014 at 22:57.
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Old 2nd Jul 2014, 23:08
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Anthill, I'm sure your search abilities are no different to mine.
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Old 2nd Jul 2014, 23:50
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"This has already started (for Class 2 at least). There is a trial going as we speak, with DAMEs issuing certificates, and will be expanded once the system has been confirmed as robust. A lot of DAMEs around the country have done the training for this over the last few months."


More bureaucratic Flim Flam.


There already has been a trial, its been going on since aviation first started.


It works very well, there are no safety issues apparent, it is cost effective, and processes vastly more pilots than This third world country will ever aspire to.


The trial I refer to is the FAA, and it would seem the Brits have finally seen the light as well and followed them.


I am somewhat embarrassed that our foreign PMO has such a low opinion of the standard and probity of the medical profession in Australia, Perhaps we should be sending our doctors to Mumbai to train.
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Old 3rd Jul 2014, 00:00
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Thorn bird
I am somewhat embarrassed that our foreign PMO has such a low opinion of the standard and probity of the medical profession in Australia, Perhaps we should be sending our doctors to Mumbai to train.
I'm not really sure what his country of birth has to do with the argument. It would appear that none of the Australian born PMOs have introduced the system of DAMEs issuing the medical cerificates.
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Old 3rd Jul 2014, 01:26
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Thorn bird,

Sending doctors to India to train could have a negative impact on standards unless our own universities faire worse than India. Most DAMEs would have
several more years training in a hospital too so the quality of hospital would contribute I suspect.

The Quacquarelli Symonds (QS) World University Rankings published on Tuesday ranked 800 universities from 76 countries on the basis of four criteria - research, teaching, employability and internationalisation.

Even the elite Indian Institutes of Technology (IITs), which are counted among the country's finest universities, could only manage a ranking of 222, the Hindustan Times reports.

The ratings are "an unpleasant surprise" to those who think that Indian higher education is world-class, the paper says in an editorial, adding that "there's little doubt that the absence of truly exemplary institutions of learning is terrible news for a country that aspires to be a world leader".
Source BBC News - Indian media worried over falling education standards
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