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The Empire Strikes Back! on Colour Defective Pilots

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The Empire Strikes Back! on Colour Defective Pilots

Old 26th Feb 2014, 04:48
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More AVMED problems

The following post illustrates the RAus view

Going public with a problem with CASA is not a recommended way to get on with them. That should be obvious to most who have dealt with them. There was a bloke at Avmed who if you disagreed with him at all, used to write your file up as you being psychologically disturbed. Just what you need to keep flying. ( It wasn't ME incidently)

I queried some of my medical history after uncovering some gratuitous and unhelpful comments put there that shouldn't have been by some DAME, my further request for more of the files were responded to by informing me the files had been lost. Yeah right!.... This is a while back. I have many friends in aviation, and I won't publish what their views of the current situation are, but not good at all.
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Old 26th Feb 2014, 06:09
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Finally – Hansard.

I hasten to add the delay in getting Hansard was all my own fault.

Mr Fereday: That is my understanding, but I am not the expert in colour vision testing.
If he don't have colour blind clue, why is the Muppet sitting there wasting everyone's time; we had the dog, just needed the pony. The grandiosely titled Principal Medical Officer (PMO) was noticeable by his absence; probably in the back room preparing an AAT brief grounding some poor sod for ingrown toenails, or excessive nose fuzz; or, maybe he and his old mate Wodger are conjuring up the next plan to save us all. The last one wuz a doozy.

Mr McCormick: I am not aware of any specific cases and assuming, as you say, there have been cases where we have withdrawn privileges, I am not aware of that myself.
Later:- we have this.

Mr McCormick: As I said, what has happened between November when I was here and that letter, this is the first that I know of it. We were, of course, expecting to be in the AAT to respond to a Mr O'Brien in February 2012, however, those proceedings are currently not listed for hearing as the previous hearing to commence on 31 March was vacated at the applicant's request.
Then this.

Mr McCormick: I am not aware of any changes around our approach to this. As I said, that letter is news to me. I am not across everything that leaves the building, particularly medical matters where I normally do not involve myself. We will take it on notice and I will get you an answer about what has transpired.
CHAIR: Thank you very much. Sadly, that completes CASA.
Amen and Hallelujah (till the next round).
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Old 26th Feb 2014, 08:22
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There was a bloke at Avmed who if you disagreed with him at all, used to write your file up as you being psychologically disturbed
ahhh . . yes . .. . surely Herr Docteur TS . . . . he who has
hastened the onset of high blood pressure and anxiety attacks in swathes of those grounded and those whose assessments are put on protracted hold . . . let us rue the day that a new broom and a new regime exercising summary powers of rejection came in to replace Rob Liddell. Approachability and accessibility should be right up there with medical nous in the criteria for appointment to Avmed.

Nothing short of a massive enema administered to the bowels of all those bureaucratic bounders will change things one iota.
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Old 26th Feb 2014, 18:03
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Jekyll and Hyde.

Wiki - Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde is the original title of a novella written by the Scottish author Robert Louis Stevenson that was first published in 1886.

The circumstances under which Doc Liddell departed the CASA fix have not, as yet been examined in any great depth. The saga of the Avmed decline seems to stem from that time, to the point where every medical could potentially wind up with an AAT hearing, it seems it's not just the CVD group having to struggle. One of the best ideas floated has been the notion that an 'independent peer review panel', made up of past and present Avmed qualified types could be made available to provide some expert sanity for those afflicted by the present system. Seems to be a unnecessary last resort in a sane world, but speaks volumes for DAME opinion of the current regime.

I did manage some light reading of other transport disciplines which require medical certifications; Road - Rail - Sea.

Road:- Part B – 10.2.6. - Rail. 22.2.3. Colour vision. - Sea Part B Medical standards : Section 3 Eyes/vision.

AMSA even have a sensible pro forma certificate.

You can draw your own conclusions, but for mine, I like the way the AMSA 'operate'. There's not a lot difference in situation between theirs than the aviation scenario; and aviation has the benefit of different altitude separation, not so at sea. The calm, practical methodology of the AMSA has not been infected by the 'myth' of air safety; their requirements and approach to the task reflect the lack of safety hysteria, notable in all other forms of transport – bar aviation. There is also a considerable difference in the number of times the AMSA wind up in court or Tribunal. Perhaps sanity may be found within the ranks of the home grown AMSA safety experts; save us a few airfares, AAT hearings and Senate inquiries.
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Old 27th Feb 2014, 04:14
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The latest out of Hansard from Mi Mi Mi Mi it is priceless

Been transcribing the events of yesterday, now up to about 21 pages and still going, and Bill Heffernan gets this week’s super-prize box of Timtams!

Chair: How did it go from a “critical nature of the incidents” to a “don’t worry about it”?

Mr Dolan: It’s a matter that we did rehearse with the references committee Senator, and in short our initial assessment of the issue of guidance as to dealing with the situation where the weather deteriorates from what was planned, we over-assessed it as critical in the early stage and by applying methodologies, concluded by the end of the process that it constituted a minor safety issue.

Chair: Can I commend you that you look really well and less stressed than you used to for some reason?

Mr Dolan: (Undecipherable): “Got rid of the beard.”

Chair: “But that particular incident I just spoke of; no thinking person would believe that bureaucratic answer. I mean, you can’t go from a critical incident to a minor or whatever it was, without something happening on the journey. Anyway we won’t go back there, but to any sensible person, that sounds like either a bloody cover-up or a balls-up.

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Old 27th Feb 2014, 20:41
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More AVMED problems

I was browsing the CASA web site, which seems to have more and more "missing pages" following a search than ever before, with easily found stuff just not being there anymore and found the following.

It is interesting that the tone of the material sent out in an e-mail newsletter is quite different from the "skull rants" every month, but the number of errors occurring are large and evident.

The confusion in all this eg. Firies and cabin crew is self evident, but you can call "Karl"!!.

DAME Newsletter - November 2013

NEW! – Direct AvMed Phone line

As of the 14th October the AvMed phone enquiries for Pilots and Controllers are being attended to by the AvMed assessing team. Please encourage all applicants to use this number when contacting AvMed.
Practice point: The new number for pilots and controllers is 1300 4 AVMED ( 1300 4 28633 ).
The contact number for DAMEs has not changed: +61 2 6217 1170.
Christmas is fast approaching

As you know, every year we have the medical application “bulge” before Christmas, and in the past we have had difficulties dealing with it. Last year, with your co-operation, we ran our “Christmas Procedure” and it ran like a charm. Everyone was happy and able to fly over the break. WE want to make this an annual procedure.
To ensure that applications are reviewed before the CASA Christmas shutdown ( 25th Dec – 2nd Jan) please tell your pilots, and have all medicals and documentation submitted to AvMed by the 6th December. We are unable to guarantee that any medical received after the 6th will be processed before Christmas.
MRS Online enhancement

An enhancement to the MRS on-line system occurred on Thursday the 25th October, we have reason to believe that correspondence by emailed to all DAMEs providing details and changes may not have reached everyone. This enhancement was to fix some existing problems, and to require a declaration to be scanned and submitted at the time of submission. This means DAMEs cannot submit a medical without first uploading the declaration form. This ensures that the completed medical is received as a complete document.
Why did this happen without adequate notice? Well, the plan was to send you advance information in this newsletter, but the IT team decided to deliver ahead of schedule! The choice was, delay (indefinitely) until the next window, or accept – a real Hobson’s choice! So we made it happen and sent you an email to advise. We apologise for the lack of communication.
If you are having problems with this upgrade because you do not have a scanner, please call Karl, and we can find interim solutions.
MRS Online

I would like to encourage all DAMEs who are currently not using the MRS On-line system to “give it a go”. It is far faster so applicants are happy too. Once you become familiar with the process I believe that you will find it a preferable system.
Practice point: All Payment forms must be emailed to [email protected]
BUGS: Lipids, Audio & Ophtho dates

This is a known nuisance! The fix has been a challenge with the MRS On-line asking for age requirements inappropriately. Currently, the system is now recognising all dates for these reports when they have been entered into the system this year. I will let you know immediately when dates recognised prior to 2013 are corrected.
Consent to email

As mentioned last month the MRS On-line declaration has been altered to include a “consent to email”. This will enable us to email any correspondence or Medical Certificate issued to the applicant the same day they are generated. This is currently not available for applications received on the paper based forms.
Sometime in November, we will start emailing out certificates to those applicants who are sending in electronic applications.
Practice point: Please check the applicant’s email address when doing the MRS Online medical!!
Emailing reports to CASA

We have recently had an issue where a DAME emailed directly to a CASA Medical Officer who was on leave. As such we had no access to the report and the applicant had been disadvantaged due to this.
Practice point: Please forward reports to the AvMed mailbox [email protected].
Airservices Australia Fire Fighters

We continue to receive inquiries in regard to the processing of Fire Fighter Medical applications. Fire fighters have to meet the Class 2 medical standard, and the medicals are done by DAMEs, but they are not CASA medicals! They are done on Airservices forms and following their procedures. The standards are absolute (no flexibility as when we make decisions – they either meet them or not). All inquiries need to be addressed to Airservices Australia, and submitted to Airservices Australia.
Cabin Crew

We have recently received several enquires about cabin crew medicals. Aviation Medicine is not responsible for assessing the medical fitness of cabin crew. Please contact the appropriate airline for such applications.
Survey Time - DAME Education

I hope you enjoyed seeing the results of the last survey. The next survey deals with the DAME education that is carried out by CASA in conjunction with ASAM. The survey will be emailed on the 1st November, please take two minutes to complete it (all our surveys are planned so as to be completed in 120 seconds). This is really important for us - to know how to best provide appropriate education to you.
DAME Education and CPD

Seminar and conference information
AMSVIC will hold a meeting on Saturday 19 April in Queenstown, followed by a day at Warbirds over Wanaka.
Dates for the other state based conferences in 2014 have not yet been finalised.
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 06:35
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From the latest issue

DAME Newsletter - February 2014

AvMed Medical Officers

2014 bring with in many challenges for AvMed a significant one being that we say goodbye to two of our Medical Officers. Sadly (for us) both Dr David Fitzgerald and Dr Peter Clem are moving on to the next chapter in their careers. David has got a position as the Occupational Physician at Emirates Airways, and Peter has gone (back) to Defence in Brisbane. While it is a real loss for CASA, it is good for their careers, and we wish them all the best.
I wonder if Dr No might be next after the embarrassment he’s been causing in the Senate Estimates?

McCormick: “…we are not actively trying to stop anybody doing anything, but we do have to exercise some degree of caution.”

CASA is not seeking to wind back the colour vision policy or to conduct a de facto appeal of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal decisions in the matters of Pape and Secretary Department of Aviation [1987] AATA 354 and Denison and Civil Aviation Authority [1989] AATA 84.”

“CASA is presently considering the use of the CAD test for the third level of testing as a more targeted and appropriate method of testing to simulate an operational situation. CASA will seek and consider the views of aeromedical specialists before any final decisions are taken on this matter. Although no rule changes are envisaged at this time, any rule changes would be consulted with industry in accordance with CASA’s normal regulatory development process."
The Australian – CASA denies rule changes on colour vision (13 December 2013)

THE Civil Aviation Safety Authority has denied that it is trying to wind back the colour vision policy for pilots or conduct a de facto appeal of Administrative Appeals Tribunal decisions on the issue.
Senate Estimates – 24 February 2014

Mr McCormick: “I am not aware of any specific cases and assuming, as you say, there have been cases where we have withdrawn privileges, I am not aware of that myself…

"I think we are looking now at carefully moving forward, or in some cases if this test has been adopted by the UK CAA and is obviously under consideration by the FAA, we would look at moving, as it says, to where the appropriate and sophisticated medical research methodologies have led. It is the mere fact of updating things. As for actually the removing the issues, I will take that on notice. I do not know who we have removed privileges from."
And then the gottcha moment …

Senator FAWCETT: I can give you the letter afterwards. I have it sitting right here in front of me from your organisation dated 24 January doing exactly that. I will put it to you that with due respect this is not moving forward, despite the evidence that you gave here at estimates in November that CASA had no agenda or no plans to wind back the gains of the Denison case. This is, in fact, a very deliberate effort to adopt a standard which might medically ascertain that somebody does have a colour vision deficiency, but clearly as evidenced by multiple pilots that have flown for over two decades, it is not an accurate or effective measure of their ability to safely operate an aircraft. This is going backwards and not, in fact, forwards.

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Old 28th Feb 2014, 17:41
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I worked with two colour vision deficient electrical engineers.
I also taught in my controls systems engineering course about designing to overcome colour vision deficits. (i have history on this)

one day the managing director hauled me into his office for a please explain, this colour vision nonsense that you teach blah blah blah.
colour vision deficit was not permitted among electrical engineers he opined.
close your eyes and think a moment. name the two most inherently talented engineers we have on staff, I asked.
after some thinking he gave me two names.
I agreed and then told him that both were colour vision deficit.
there was a bit of an explosion after that but it got him nowhere.

colour vision deficit people are needlessly discriminated against.
none in my direct personal experience have ever had an intellectual deficit.

on my airfield I have noticed a number of better than average pilots.
of those better than average pilots 5 of them are red - green colour blind.

surely it is high time for the rusted on senility in ICAO, the FAA and CASA to really address the only problem ever identified for CVD pilots.
white and amber colours would remove the problems (if indeed they exist) completely.

if you don't fix this CASA you definitely are totally incompetent.
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Old 28th Feb 2014, 18:32
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Yeah, but...

This seems not to be so much about 'competency' but 'black letter law' and outrageous ego. The rules could be so very easily changed, no need to change the lamp lens. <5700 Kg SP/IFR competency demonstrated as per usual. >57 PIC/FO not with another CVD pilot, competency as per usual. A doddle with the right mind set.

Unknown - "Since the Denison ruling, CVD pilots have consistently demonstrated the ability necessary for the safe performance of duties through regular, rigorous flight and simulator assessments." (ICAO in bold).
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Old 1st Mar 2014, 03:33
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One of my close friends is a red/green colour deficient highly respected General Surgeon with a busy practice.

Good thing CASA don't regulate Doctors !!!!!!
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 08:54
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Angel Avmed decision set aside in the AAT again??

Fort Fumble Avmed PMO cops another pizzling in the AAT...

McSherry and Civil Aviation Safety Authority [2014] AATA 119 (6 March 2014)

"..50. We note that in expressing that opinion, Associate Professor Navathe differed from both Associate Professor Ward and Dr McRae, each of whom regarded the risk of an incompletely incapacitating bleed causing problems for Mr McSherry whilst he was flying to be extremely small. Further, we do not consider this aspect of Associate Professor Navathe’s evidence to have been well-supported or well-reasoned and we formed the impression that this aspect of his evidence may well have been influenced by his desire to justify the decision he had made, to impose conditions on Mr McSherry’s class 1 medical certificate. We were also troubled by the significant differences between the opinions expressed in Associate Professor Navathe’s statement of 8 October 2013 on the one hand, and his oral evidence on the other....

"...56. The respondent’s decision of 6 August 2013 is set aside and in substitution for that decision it is decided that Mr McSherry is entitled to the issue of class 1 and class 2 medical certificates, without conditions..."

How much can a Koala bear??
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Old 10th Mar 2014, 09:19
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More pooh levelled at Poohshan

Once again, no real shock. A CAsA employee trying to make a decision stick so as to save his own ego and pride, regardless of what the other evidences show.
CAsA are a long standing joke and think nothing of sacrificing another persons career and life to protect their own incompetences and pride.

Sorry, but Dr Pooshan is yet another on CAsA's list of high ranking personnel that should be shown the door, ASAP.
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Old 10th May 2014, 00:06
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Pressure mounting?

A number of CVD pilots received an interesting email during the week, along with re-issued medical certificates. This followed some probing questioning by some of the CVDPA folk.

You would have noticed that your recent medical certificate had a condition 13 which read "Limited to flights conducted inside Australian territory" instead of the earlier "Holder does not fully meet requirements of ICAO Convention Chapter 6 of Annex 1".

Recent research undertaken by CASA in the context of an extensive matter before the Administrative Appeals Tribunal revealed that foreign aviation authorities in a number of countries take a much stricter approach to the medical certification of pilots with colour vision deficiencies (CVD) than is currently the case in Australia. Given the significant difference in the treatment of pilots with CVD in other countries, CASA formed the view that medical certificates issued to persons with CVD should be limited to the conduct of operations in Australian territory. The condition 13 on the medical certificates was accordingly modified. This was on the basis that it was not considered appropriate for CASA to authorise persons to fly in the airspace of a foreign country in circumstances where the aviation authorities in that country would not countenance medical certification of the pilot concerned.

On the basis that CASA did not consult with affected pilots prior to making the change to the condition text, it has been decided that a replacement certificate reinstating the previous condition should be issued to you, and that is attached. At this point in time, CASA has no intention of changing the condition text in the immediate future.

I apologise for any inconvenience caused to you, and if you have any questions please contact 1300 4 AVMED.

Aviation Medicine
Most interpreted the original condition to mean that although the Australian standards differed from ICAO, they could still operate internationally on the basis of their Australian licence and medical, in a VH- registered aircraft. The surreptitious change to the wording earlier this year then dramatically altered the type of operations that some pilots were able to perform.

Could it be that the pressure is slowly mounting on CVD issues?
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Old 27th May 2014, 03:06
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PMO Questioned in Senate Estimates

Copied from Senate Enquiry thread...

It was good to finally see the PMO get grilled in Senate Estimates last night on the CVD issue.

Well done to Senator Fawcett for pursuing this matter so passionately!

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Old 27th May 2014, 03:38
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Implication of mccomick statement

I listened to the exchange with the Honourable Senator Fawcett, the medical officer and mccomick.

Fawcett raised issues of the "Model Litigant" and how casa could justify it's actions.

mccomick could not justify to the Senator the spending of the ?? in excess of $100K to pursue the matter in the AAT and find a reasonable compromise prior to the AAT.

So mccomick invoked the "Safety Reason's" from the CAAct.

It is obvious how this will be prosecuted. Interesting that casa brought "Manager Legal Branch" Joe Rule out of the cupboard to help in the matter.

I wonder if the "wonder man" Ian Harvey - the million dollar Barrister will be working on this??

The video needs some careful study for the up-coming AAT hearing on CVT next month.

Mccomick certainly flagged that he is not open to any compromise.

Maybe a last hurrah by "the angry man".
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Old 27th May 2014, 22:03
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Stevie, mate,
maybe your a tad naïve expecting anyone in CAsA to tell you the truth!
Mate, if their prepared, and do, perjure themselves in a court why would anyone trust anything they say?
Committing perjury, swearing false statements, manufacturing evidence is somewhat frowned on for us Plebs.
They on the other hand are entirely immune to sanction and are positively encouraged.
As one of their leaders once told a minister,
"Proof, minister if we had to provide proof we'd have to employ another hundred staff!!"

Last edited by thorn bird; 27th May 2014 at 22:30.
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Old 28th May 2014, 06:02
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A triumph of prejudice, dressed up as ‘safety’

Senator FAWCETT: Dr Navathe, there are two confounds with that approach. One very simple example is that in my past at military college they used to have language aptitude tests, theoretically derived tests. Our counterparts from countries in Asia were not normally sitting those. A Chinese origin Singaporean student sat the test, failed dismally, was told he had no aptitude for tonal languages. The similar confound for you is that pilots who had been safely flying for tens of thousands of hours have failed the CAD test and yet have demonstrated their ability to safely operate aircraft in not just one test but multiple check and training tests with multiple instructors.

So if the contention that Mr McCormick made is that CASA approached this on an individual capacity basis, as opposed to one rule, then you cannot discount the fact that a theoretical test will not necessarily determine an individual's ability to use other cues to operate an aircraft safely. You mentioned that they looked at internal and external lights. It is a proven fact that in aircraft that are modified for night vision imaging systems, where all the emitted light is filtered with something like a BG7 filter, the colour hierarchies are completely disrupted and yet air crew in fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft, normal colour pilots, quite safely operate those aircraft in terms of interpreting that internal information. Likewise with external information—the human body adapts. There are things like hypersteriopsis. For years we have said that that would make it impossible to fly, yet the body adapts to that. So what you are seeing, in the case of this pilot—I understand you attempted in 2009 to not renew his medical, but subsequently you gave it back to him to continue flying as a captain in an ATPL situation—is that he has not passed the CAD test but demonstrates that he as an individual is able to competently fly an aircraft by day, by night, in IFR conditions. From the point of view of procedural fairness and natural justice, is it a good use of taxpayers' money to take these issues through to well over $100,000 in an AAT hearing when there are proven methods of establishing the competence of an individual to operate an aircraft?

Mr McCormick: We do not know what the sum of money involved is but we will go with what you are saying at the moment. The overriding principle here, whether it is colour vision deficiency, hearing deficiency or any sort of impairment on the pilot, is safety. We are talking about going towards an ATPL, when there is no standard of which we are aware for issuing an ATPL anywhere in the world, for what would be the benefit of a number of pilots—I think we are talking about a few hundred pilots in total. I agree they should be able to do the best they can in their career but our responsibility is to maintain the safety of the Australian travelling public. When we get to the point where we are pushing the boundaries, where we are pushing the science, looking for other ways to get around what could possibility be indicated from the clinical side is a dangerous thing to do, we are starting to impact on my ability to discharge my duties under section 9 of the Civil Aviation Act, and that is to provide safety as outlined in that act.

If we wish to go there, then we have to go there in a measured manner. We will not go there on one basic flight test. I am sorry, but we will research this as much as necessary and, with all due respect, I will not be issuing an ATPL to a person who has failed the test as outlined in 67. We intend to do nothing with those who already have their licence and have their privileges. We are writing to them, as I mentioned to you the other day, to say that if they have had some change in their vision or if they think something has changed that will affect them, then perhaps they should discuss it with their own doctor or with their own DAME. I agree we should move forward, but we are already way out in front of half of the world, if not three-quarters or all the world, and as we move forward we will do it at a measured pace. When O'Brien goes through the AAT, we will see what the AAT has to say, what their preferred decision is, and that will give us the basis from which we can move forward, whether it be a practical test or whether it be a clinical test or whatever combination is required. To do it now unilaterally would be dangerous.
[Bolding added to substantive text.]


I am reminded of this, from Carl Sagan (with evident geographical amendments):
I have a foreboding of an Australian in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when Australia is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

The dumbing down of Australia is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance.
When something is curtailed in the name of ‘safety’ and labelled ‘dangerous’, despite decades and tens of thousands of flying hours of evidence demonstrating the opposite, it appears someone is having difficulty distinguishing between what feels goods and what’s true.

The ‘precautionary principle’ has been described as the celebration of ignorance. But here, the regulator can’t even hide beyond the fear of the unknown. The results of the CVD experiment are already ‘in’. There is less risk of CVD causing an accident than appendicitis causing an accident. Yet pilots are allowed to fly around with a ticking time bomb inside them in the form of an appendix.

This goes beyond a celebration of ignorance. It is the triumph of the last remnants of prejudice against people ‘who shouldn’t be allowed to fly’ because we ‘feel’ it would be ‘safer’ if they didn’t.
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Old 28th May 2014, 08:38
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so true

Thorny...so true ...and all overseen and condoned by the angry man'

Now there's a das with cojones !!! NOT

August draws nigh. Thus endeth the trough. And a very bad lesson for aviation safety. IMHO of course.
Been there, copped all that.
So what would I know...as a CAsA client/victim
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Old 29th May 2014, 00:45
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Spot on Thorny!!

My experience with the evil empire has only found 2 people who have kept to their word over the past 20 years.

No "feedback" is the mantra and by refusing to re-contact or communicate with the individual raising the issue, how can you ever be called to account [for your comments] or


Of course I am cynical, but it goes back to a conversation with the setter of a CPL exam.

I raised serious educational problems and errors with the questions and answers.

I remember a conversation with the person who I found had set the CPL Exam at the time. We argued about the four part answer (a) and (b) we agreed were wrong, but no agreement about if answer was (c) or (d) and in the end I challenged the writer about the answer and he said:

"Of course the answer is (d), I wrote the question.

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Old 29th May 2014, 07:56
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"This goes beyond a celebration of ignorance. It is the triumph of the last remnants of prejudice against people ‘who shouldn’t be allowed to fly’ because we ‘feel’ it would be ‘safer’ if they didn’t".

Creamie, here bloody here!!!!!!!!!!!!
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