Newbie & Flying Training Advice (Merged)
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 52
Likes: 1
From: Melbourne
Hi all,
I am hoping someone may be able to help me out with something.
I started flying in 2020, learning in a PA28, let's just say It took me a little longer to reach solo, I needed 35 hours over the course of 18months. Thank you covid! However I did manage to do 5 x solo circuits.
Anyway, after going solo we had locked down again and I was over it by this point so I took a break and decided I would return to flying once I knew lockdowns were definitely over. Fast forward another 18 months and I am in a C152 starting from the beginning.
Has anyone made the transition between the two and felt uncomfortable in the C152? I was confident in the PA28 (eventually), I didn't seem to feel the wind or turbulence to the level that a C152 feels. Now I feel like I am not in control the same way I was and flying is back to being a challenging experience rather than one I was confident doing.
Is it just one of those things that I've had too long a break and it really is starting again because I felt having previous experience I would be comfortable with switching to a C152. Going solo seems like such a huge hurdle.
I hope someone can share their thoughts, this forum has been a safe and educational space.
Chopz
I am hoping someone may be able to help me out with something.
I started flying in 2020, learning in a PA28, let's just say It took me a little longer to reach solo, I needed 35 hours over the course of 18months. Thank you covid! However I did manage to do 5 x solo circuits.
Anyway, after going solo we had locked down again and I was over it by this point so I took a break and decided I would return to flying once I knew lockdowns were definitely over. Fast forward another 18 months and I am in a C152 starting from the beginning.
Has anyone made the transition between the two and felt uncomfortable in the C152? I was confident in the PA28 (eventually), I didn't seem to feel the wind or turbulence to the level that a C152 feels. Now I feel like I am not in control the same way I was and flying is back to being a challenging experience rather than one I was confident doing.
Is it just one of those things that I've had too long a break and it really is starting again because I felt having previous experience I would be comfortable with switching to a C152. Going solo seems like such a huge hurdle.
I hope someone can share their thoughts, this forum has been a safe and educational space.
Chopz
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 274
From: Melbourne, Victoria
Has anyone made the transition between the two and felt uncomfortable in the C152? I was confident in the PA28 (eventually), I didn't seem to feel the wind or turbulence to the level that a C152 feels. Now I feel like I am not in control the same way I was and flying is back to being a challenging experience rather than one I was confident doing.
Is it just one of those things that I've had too long a break and it really is starting again because I felt having previous experience I would be comfortable with switching to a C152. Going solo seems like such a huge hurdle.
Is it just one of those things that I've had too long a break and it really is starting again because I felt having previous experience I would be comfortable with switching to a C152. Going solo seems like such a huge hurdle.
Cessnas and Pipers (high wing vs low wing) really are very different aircraft and really do 'feel' different. As a low hour student, how you feeI is going to be really important to your ability to learn the important stuff - operating the aircraft - and moving to something completely different will certainly cost you more in hours, so I'd suggest you stay with the PA28 - at least until after going solo.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,210
Likes: 56
From: Melbourne, Australia
Core stick and rudder flying skills are essential and my opinion is that the Cessna 152 is the best ab initio trainer around to achieve that. I see some types used in basic training which are really unsuitable for that purpose - even the POH of some prohibit manoeuvres required by CASA Part 61.
I get some wanting a tailwheel endorsement who have only flown a PA-28 previously and I know it will take much longer so I advise them to do some dual circuits in a 152 first to save some money.
I get some wanting a tailwheel endorsement who have only flown a PA-28 previously and I know it will take much longer so I advise them to do some dual circuits in a 152 first to save some money.
Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 794
Likes: 177
From: tossbagville
You fellas that did CPL, Instructor and Instrument Ratings on FEE-HELP, who advised you to do all three in quick succession? Did anybody tell you you've got sweet **** all chance of getting an IFR job with a bare commercial and an instrument rating? Did anyone tell you that flight training schools couldn't give a rats arse about your instrument rating when you're applying for a G3 position? Did anyone tell you it'll be at least 3 to 5 years before you use that Instrument Rating? (so why do it?) Did any of you do research on the job market before you committed to a loan that would still buy a house in some regional areas? The historical cyclical nature of aviation recruitment? Did any of you read Fate Is The Hunter? Or Biggles books? Or any cool aviation books?
Do any of you know who Charles Kingsford Smith is? Or Nancy Bird? Or Geraldine Mock? Have any of you done a flight to a really cool outback destination with your mates, like Birdsville. Or the Bathurst 1000?
Do any of you know who Charles Kingsford Smith is? Or Nancy Bird? Or Geraldine Mock? Have any of you done a flight to a really cool outback destination with your mates, like Birdsville. Or the Bathurst 1000?
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 44
Likes: 6
From: gapuwiyak
Joined: Oct 2022
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: syd
Aviation Degree (e.g., UNSW) vs. Airline Cadetships
Hi everyone,
I'm exploring potential career paths in aviation for when I finish HS. I'm interested in an Aviation Degree (for example, at UNSW) and applying for an airline cadetship. Both options seem to have their unique benefits and drawbacks, and I have some queries.
I noticed that the ATAR entry mark for the UNSW aviation degree is 70, which doesn't seem too competitive when compared to the selection process for airline cadetships. For those of you with experience in the industry or familiarity with these paths, could you please share your insights on the advantages and disadvantages of an aviation degree compared to a cadetship, considering factors like competitiveness, career progression, and industry opportunities?
Why is the Aviation Degree ATAR for UNSW 70 when cadetships are extremely competitive? Most cadetships in Australia don't guarantee employment, for example, students studying aviation at UNSW can apply to the same future pilot program that Qantas cadets apply for.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
clamspread
I'm exploring potential career paths in aviation for when I finish HS. I'm interested in an Aviation Degree (for example, at UNSW) and applying for an airline cadetship. Both options seem to have their unique benefits and drawbacks, and I have some queries.
I noticed that the ATAR entry mark for the UNSW aviation degree is 70, which doesn't seem too competitive when compared to the selection process for airline cadetships. For those of you with experience in the industry or familiarity with these paths, could you please share your insights on the advantages and disadvantages of an aviation degree compared to a cadetship, considering factors like competitiveness, career progression, and industry opportunities?
Why is the Aviation Degree ATAR for UNSW 70 when cadetships are extremely competitive? Most cadetships in Australia don't guarantee employment, for example, students studying aviation at UNSW can apply to the same future pilot program that Qantas cadets apply for.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
clamspread
Last edited by clamspread; 7th April 2023 at 05:28.
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,893
Likes: 297
From: Oz
The only upside in any degree is for the education institutions balance sheet. I worked in recruitment in a previous employer (airline), we did not take a degree into any decision making, nobody cares, I never had a pilot in a interview mention it either, as they know, its pointless and management don't care. The ATAR mark is low because they are after numbers, ie profit. In fact, many education providers are currently in balance sheet repair mode after the previous few years, expect the entry barrier to possible even reduce further.
A Cadetship will be always be competitive. You are essentially bypassing the GA route which is very unattractive (too hard) for many. Financial assistance is also offered.
If you get into a cadetship, then great, if not, it's not the end. Work full time until mid 20s, self fund a CPL, get some 210 time, move to Darwin and they will hire you soon after.
A Cadetship will be always be competitive. You are essentially bypassing the GA route which is very unattractive (too hard) for many. Financial assistance is also offered.
If you get into a cadetship, then great, if not, it's not the end. Work full time until mid 20s, self fund a CPL, get some 210 time, move to Darwin and they will hire you soon after.
Joined: Oct 2022
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: syd
Thanks for the response,How competitive are cadetships? I've heard that cadet programs may be hesitant to accept recent high school graduates due to their limited real-world experience.
What are the potential drawbacks of obtaining an aviation degree? How does career development differ when comparing earning a Commercial Pilot License independently versus through an aviation degree program? While GA isn't an area of interest, I'm open to necessary options to progress in the aviation sector.
What are the potential drawbacks of obtaining an aviation degree? How does career development differ when comparing earning a Commercial Pilot License independently versus through an aviation degree program? While GA isn't an area of interest, I'm open to necessary options to progress in the aviation sector.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 302
Likes: 39
The draw back at uni is time wasted on unnecessary subjects that make the course take the required length of time. For example if you go through a small school full time you can easily finish your CPL within 12 months and be out trying to find work where the uni students will still have two or three years still studying. If you can find a job you could be 1000+ hours ahead of the others. That’s IF you can find a job! As many are finding it’s not quite that easy.
I don’t have any figures on how competitive cadet shops are but anecdotally I’ve heard a minimum of 4-5 applicants for every slot (when they are doing them).
I don’t have any figures on how competitive cadet shops are but anecdotally I’ve heard a minimum of 4-5 applicants for every slot (when they are doing them).
Guest
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 107
Likes: 26
From: Around
If COVID taught pilots anything its that the Aviation Degree is worthless when the industry locks down! Self fund the CPL (if you miss cadet) and part time look to do a trade (electrical, plumbing, whatever, take your pick). That time spent telling some uni course admin person in 5000 words or less how "avaition fits in a modern society" or some nonsense will be better spent getting a trade that will pay your bills and fund your flying and life.
Joined: Oct 2022
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: syd
The draw back at uni is time wasted on unnecessary subjects that make the course take the required length of time. For example if you go through a small school full time you can easily finish your CPL within 12 months and be out trying to find work where the uni students will still have two or three years still studying. If you can find a job you could be 1000+ hours ahead of the others. That’s IF you can find a job! As many are finding it’s not quite that easy.
I don’t have any figures on how competitive cadet shops are but anecdotally I’ve heard a minimum of 4-5 applicants for every slot (when they are doing them).
I don’t have any figures on how competitive cadet shops are but anecdotally I’ve heard a minimum of 4-5 applicants for every slot (when they are doing them).
Joined: Oct 2022
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: syd
If COVID taught pilots anything its that the Aviation Degree is worthless when the industry locks down! Self fund the CPL (if you miss cadet) and part time look to do a trade (electrical, plumbing, whatever, take your pick). That time spent telling some uni course admin person in 5000 words or less how "avaition fits in a modern society" or some nonsense will be better spent getting a trade that will pay your bills and fund your flying and life.
Yep, I agree. I'd like to get a degree while also getting my CPL, but I probably wouldn't have the monetary means to do so. So instead of getting a trade, I might consider the police force. Probationary Constable salary is great.
I've seen most cadetships are ab initio; I've got some flight hours. Would that put me at a disadvantage?
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 319
Likes: 39
From: Sydney
What ever flying school you think you might consider doing your flying training you must do some thorough background checking. What is the experience of the instructors? does the training school have a demonstrated record (names not just numbers) of graduates employed, and where were they employed? how long do the instructors get to spend with you for pre- and post flight brief for every hours flights?; what is the cost breakdown and how much do you pay up front (never pay a whole course up front, but progress payments may be reasonable, check the fine print); how is the theory delivered and at what cost?. Check to see what training fees include (landing fees, instruction, fuel, theory, repeat flights...) and what is not included.
Whether you will want to use a government loan (HECS Help or FEE-Help; make sure you understand the difference) will depend on whether you have cash up front (a rich uncle scrooge, family savings or personal savings) or need a loan. The government loans to universities are always loaded with "on-costs" which are added to the actual costs of training, however even training organisations without government loan affiliations will often still charge comparable amounts. The practice of training on weekends and earning through the week is inefficient and not conducive to building flying capability quickly or effectively. So if young and penniless the loans are a way forward. (It takes several years to get a trade qualification, say as a sparky, and then several more years to save cash, so this is a very long pathway).
Not all universities are the same in terms of entry criteria, and postgraduate employability. Check on both, rumours abound; an earlier post suggests UNSW ATAR is 70; not long ago I believe it was ~80. A University degree does indicate some measure of ability to absorb and understand technical information and also some maturity of living and working with others, so can add to employability for some types of flying positions where this is useful. Visit the school on open days and also get a personal interview. Try to get to talk with current students in private to get their real opinions.
It is your pathway to choose, and every path is expensive in cost, and of course takes time ( and precludes or postpones another choice). Good luck
Seabreeze
Whether you will want to use a government loan (HECS Help or FEE-Help; make sure you understand the difference) will depend on whether you have cash up front (a rich uncle scrooge, family savings or personal savings) or need a loan. The government loans to universities are always loaded with "on-costs" which are added to the actual costs of training, however even training organisations without government loan affiliations will often still charge comparable amounts. The practice of training on weekends and earning through the week is inefficient and not conducive to building flying capability quickly or effectively. So if young and penniless the loans are a way forward. (It takes several years to get a trade qualification, say as a sparky, and then several more years to save cash, so this is a very long pathway).
Not all universities are the same in terms of entry criteria, and postgraduate employability. Check on both, rumours abound; an earlier post suggests UNSW ATAR is 70; not long ago I believe it was ~80. A University degree does indicate some measure of ability to absorb and understand technical information and also some maturity of living and working with others, so can add to employability for some types of flying positions where this is useful. Visit the school on open days and also get a personal interview. Try to get to talk with current students in private to get their real opinions.
It is your pathway to choose, and every path is expensive in cost, and of course takes time ( and precludes or postpones another choice). Good luck
Seabreeze
Joined: Jun 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,574
Likes: 410
From: FNQ ... It's Permanent!
What ever flying school you think you might consider doing your flying training you must do some thorough background checking. What is the experience of the instructors? does the training school have a demonstrated record (names not just numbers) of graduates employed, and where were they employed? how long do the instructors get to spend with you for pre- and post flight brief for every hours flights?; what is the cost breakdown and how much do you pay up front (never pay a whole course up front, but progress payments may be reasonable, check the fine print); how is the theory delivered and at what cost?. Check to see what training fees include (landing fees, instruction, fuel, theory, repeat flights...) and what is not included.
Joined: Oct 2022
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: syd
What ever flying school you think you might consider doing your flying training you must do some thorough background checking. What is the experience of the instructors? does the training school have a demonstrated record (names not just numbers) of graduates employed, and where were they employed? how long do the instructors get to spend with you for pre- and post flight brief for every hours flights?; what is the cost breakdown and how much do you pay up front (never pay a whole course up front, but progress payments may be reasonable, check the fine print); how is the theory delivered and at what cost?. Check to see what training fees include (landing fees, instruction, fuel, theory, repeat flights...) and what is not included.
Whether you will want to use a government loan (HECS Help or FEE-Help; make sure you understand the difference) will depend on whether you have cash up front (a rich uncle scrooge, family savings or personal savings) or need a loan. The government loans to universities are always loaded with "on-costs" which are added to the actual costs of training, however even training organisations without government loan affiliations will often still charge comparable amounts. The practice of training on weekends and earning through the week is inefficient and not conducive to building flying capability quickly or effectively. So if young and penniless the loans are a way forward. (It takes several years to get a trade qualification, say as a sparky, and then several more years to save cash, so this is a very long pathway).
Not all universities are the same in terms of entry criteria, and postgraduate employability. Check on both, rumours abound; an earlier post suggests UNSW ATAR is 70; not long ago I believe it was ~80. A University degree does indicate some measure of ability to absorb and understand technical information and also some maturity of living and working with others, so can add to employability for some types of flying positions where this is useful. Visit the school on open days and also get a personal interview. Try to get to talk with current students in private to get their real opinions.
It is your pathway to choose, and every path is expensive in cost, and of course takes time ( and precludes or postpones another choice). Good luck
Seabreeze
Whether you will want to use a government loan (HECS Help or FEE-Help; make sure you understand the difference) will depend on whether you have cash up front (a rich uncle scrooge, family savings or personal savings) or need a loan. The government loans to universities are always loaded with "on-costs" which are added to the actual costs of training, however even training organisations without government loan affiliations will often still charge comparable amounts. The practice of training on weekends and earning through the week is inefficient and not conducive to building flying capability quickly or effectively. So if young and penniless the loans are a way forward. (It takes several years to get a trade qualification, say as a sparky, and then several more years to save cash, so this is a very long pathway).
Not all universities are the same in terms of entry criteria, and postgraduate employability. Check on both, rumours abound; an earlier post suggests UNSW ATAR is 70; not long ago I believe it was ~80. A University degree does indicate some measure of ability to absorb and understand technical information and also some maturity of living and working with others, so can add to employability for some types of flying positions where this is useful. Visit the school on open days and also get a personal interview. Try to get to talk with current students in private to get their real opinions.
It is your pathway to choose, and every path is expensive in cost, and of course takes time ( and precludes or postpones another choice). Good luck
Seabreeze
Thanks for the response,
I'll be happy with any pathway that leads me into aviation, but as it stands, I'm most interested in the cadetship and Uni pathways. I'll be taking out a loan either way. I've conducted some research on post-graduate pathways via LinkedIn, and I've discovered that Cadetships and University programs yield fairly comparable outcomes. A notable number of Rex Saab FOs are graduates of AAPA, while many QLink Q300/400 FOs have successfully transitioned through the Future Pilot Program with backgrounds from both FTA and Uni.
Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 794
Likes: 177
From: tossbagville
A notable number of Rex Saab FOs are graduates of AAPA
while many QLink Q300/400 FOs have successfully transitioned through the Future Pilot Program with backgrounds from both FTA and Uni.
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,893
Likes: 297
From: Oz
Just be careful with LinkedIn. Those degrees are generally connected to a Cadetship or something, especially Rex. Anyone that has AAPA connected to a profile is a Rex cadet. Common across the Rex FO ranks as that is a lever Rex uses to man its fleet.
Not sure degrees are that widespread outside of the Cadet schemes. Aside the cadets I sit next to, the rest are GA. Nobody that I am aware of is ex degree. See my point earlier, in recruitment, it wasn’t something we factored in. It was on some resumes, when we conducted the interview, none of them mentioned it, as they know, nobody cares.
It’s more a demand for a certain type of pilot the employer is looking for. Let’s take Darwin for
example. To be successful, you need to actually live there, have what they actually want, which generally involves a dozen or so hours in a 206/210, a retractable gear rating, and the right attitude. Last one is probably the most important. Forget IFR/Twin ratings at 200 hours, not important.
Age can play a part. The pool these days is largely early to late twenties, generally somewhere in first to middle range. I was speaking to a GA owner last year, he was after two people, had 50 resumes, they all sat in 20-25 years old range, then he had one random bloke mid 30s, local, ex corporate career, single with no ties. Guess who got the job. Your competition might be someone older who comes from other life. That is why I advise perhaps don’t rush, live life, travel the world, buy a house. Revisit late 20s, you will likely slot into a job easier, your confidence level is chalk and cheese from 20 to 30.
Not sure degrees are that widespread outside of the Cadet schemes. Aside the cadets I sit next to, the rest are GA. Nobody that I am aware of is ex degree. See my point earlier, in recruitment, it wasn’t something we factored in. It was on some resumes, when we conducted the interview, none of them mentioned it, as they know, nobody cares.
How hard is it to find a GA job? I was under the impression that there was a certain level of demand in this sector.
example. To be successful, you need to actually live there, have what they actually want, which generally involves a dozen or so hours in a 206/210, a retractable gear rating, and the right attitude. Last one is probably the most important. Forget IFR/Twin ratings at 200 hours, not important.
Age can play a part. The pool these days is largely early to late twenties, generally somewhere in first to middle range. I was speaking to a GA owner last year, he was after two people, had 50 resumes, they all sat in 20-25 years old range, then he had one random bloke mid 30s, local, ex corporate career, single with no ties. Guess who got the job. Your competition might be someone older who comes from other life. That is why I advise perhaps don’t rush, live life, travel the world, buy a house. Revisit late 20s, you will likely slot into a job easier, your confidence level is chalk and cheese from 20 to 30.
Joined: Oct 2022
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: syd
Just be careful with LinkedIn. Those degrees are generally connected to a Cadetship or something, especially Rex. Anyone that has AAPA connected to a profile is a Rex cadet. Common across the Rex FO ranks as that is a lever Rex uses to man its fleet.
Not sure degrees are that widespread outside of the Cadet schemes. Aside the cadets I sit next to, the rest are GA. Nobody that I am aware of is ex degree. See my point earlier, in recruitment, it wasn’t something we factored in. It was on some resumes, when we conducted the interview, none of them mentioned it, as they know, nobody cares.
It’s more a demand for a certain type of pilot the employer is looking for. Let’s take Darwin for
example. To be successful, you need to actually live there, have what they actually want, which generally involves a dozen or so hours in a 206/210, a retractable gear rating, and the right attitude. Last one is probably the most important. Forget IFR/Twin ratings at 200 hours, not important.
Age can play a part. The pool these days is largely early to late twenties, generally somewhere in first to middle range. I was speaking to a GA owner last year, he was after two people, had 50 resumes, they all sat in 20-25 years old range, then he had one random bloke mid 30s, local, ex corporate career, single with no ties. Guess who got the job. Your competition might be someone older who comes from other life. That is why I advise perhaps don’t rush, live life, travel the world, buy a house. Revisit late 20s, you will likely slot into a job easier, your confidence level is chalk and cheese from 20 to 30.
Not sure degrees are that widespread outside of the Cadet schemes. Aside the cadets I sit next to, the rest are GA. Nobody that I am aware of is ex degree. See my point earlier, in recruitment, it wasn’t something we factored in. It was on some resumes, when we conducted the interview, none of them mentioned it, as they know, nobody cares.
It’s more a demand for a certain type of pilot the employer is looking for. Let’s take Darwin for
example. To be successful, you need to actually live there, have what they actually want, which generally involves a dozen or so hours in a 206/210, a retractable gear rating, and the right attitude. Last one is probably the most important. Forget IFR/Twin ratings at 200 hours, not important.
Age can play a part. The pool these days is largely early to late twenties, generally somewhere in first to middle range. I was speaking to a GA owner last year, he was after two people, had 50 resumes, they all sat in 20-25 years old range, then he had one random bloke mid 30s, local, ex corporate career, single with no ties. Guess who got the job. Your competition might be someone older who comes from other life. That is why I advise perhaps don’t rush, live life, travel the world, buy a house. Revisit late 20s, you will likely slot into a job easier, your confidence level is chalk and cheese from 20 to 30.
Could initiating a career in Europe potentially present more advantageous or simplified opportunities? I'm eligible to get a European passport.
