Flight hours as a co pilot (PF) role B737
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Ras al khaimah
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flight hours as a co pilot (PF) role B737
G'day, Just a question about flight time.
I am about to start with a company as an FO here in UAE, I have previously only flown in Australian airspace.
I am wondering in which colum of my logbook do I log the time when I am flying the sector as PF?
is it all co-pilot time, or can I use the ICUS section for PF time?
also can I use my flight hours here to count towards a CASA ATPL?
Regards
I am about to start with a company as an FO here in UAE, I have previously only flown in Australian airspace.
I am wondering in which colum of my logbook do I log the time when I am flying the sector as PF?
is it all co-pilot time, or can I use the ICUS section for PF time?
also can I use my flight hours here to count towards a CASA ATPL?
Regards
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: East
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't know about UAE rules.
CASA has 2 requirementes that will depend on your company to log it as ICUS.
" (e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision; and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft."
I dare say wen you try to get a CASA ATPL they will call it all co-pilot time unless its ICUS relating to a cmd upgrade.
CASA has 2 requirementes that will depend on your company to log it as ICUS.
" (e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision; and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft."
I dare say wen you try to get a CASA ATPL they will call it all co-pilot time unless its ICUS relating to a cmd upgrade.
Last edited by NIK320; 4th Apr 2013 at 22:12.
It all depends on what regs you are operating under and which license you are using. If you now are using a UAE license you will have to look up what they say about logging. If it is a OZ license then it is copilot.
Why can't it be ICUS if it follows the rules quoted above???
CASA has 2 requirementes that will depend on your company to log it as ICUS.
" (e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision; and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft."
" (e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision; and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft."
Some places don't have and ICUS column in their logbook, there may be no provision for ICUS in the UAE.
Eastern Skyjets,
With the exception of neville nobody and one other, most of what you have been told here is garbage, and not even a good grade of garbage.
Under ICAO Annex 1, it is AICUS by whatever name.
You need to check the rules for your country of license. Don't just ask somebody in the company, check the local law, get your facts straight. You might ask another Australia who doesn't know either , so just makes it up.
What it is NOT, is in command. If your logbook does not have an AICUS/P1-U/S column, it is logged in the command column, with the name of the Captain of the aircraft in the pilot column to make it clear you were not the pilot in command.
Do your own homework, find out the local air law on the subject, and take no notice of people who, quite simply, do not know what they are talking about.
As for all you anal retentives in Australia on this subject, who can't tell the difference between P1 and P1 U/S, with Australia's non-compliance with ICAO, don't forget, Qantas F/0s log AICUS (NOT co-pilot) on every sector where they are pilot flying. And have done for many, many years. And it is legal.
Tootle pip!!
With the exception of neville nobody and one other, most of what you have been told here is garbage, and not even a good grade of garbage.
Under ICAO Annex 1, it is AICUS by whatever name.
You need to check the rules for your country of license. Don't just ask somebody in the company, check the local law, get your facts straight. You might ask another Australia who doesn't know either , so just makes it up.
What it is NOT, is in command. If your logbook does not have an AICUS/P1-U/S column, it is logged in the command column, with the name of the Captain of the aircraft in the pilot column to make it clear you were not the pilot in command.
Do your own homework, find out the local air law on the subject, and take no notice of people who, quite simply, do not know what they are talking about.
As for all you anal retentives in Australia on this subject, who can't tell the difference between P1 and P1 U/S, with Australia's non-compliance with ICAO, don't forget, Qantas F/0s log AICUS (NOT co-pilot) on every sector where they are pilot flying. And have done for many, many years. And it is legal.
Tootle pip!!
Last edited by LeadSled; 5th Apr 2013 at 07:12.
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Someday I will find a place to stop
Posts: 1,028
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes
on
7 Posts
Yup go with LeadSled.
Makes me laugh hearing the Australian rules compared to what the rest of the world does.
Strictly speaking, yes go with the country rules of the licence you are flying on.
Which is pretty much this for 2 crew:
From the right seat when PF its ICUS.
From the right seat when PNF its Co-Pilot.
During line training even when PF its Co-Pilot.
Its only ever Command from the left seat.
And its the block to block time, not the scheduled time!
Yes hours will count to CASA ATPL, make sure to get the Capt signatures in the logbook, or letter of verification from the Employer.
Makes me laugh hearing the Australian rules compared to what the rest of the world does.
Strictly speaking, yes go with the country rules of the licence you are flying on.
Which is pretty much this for 2 crew:
From the right seat when PF its ICUS.
From the right seat when PNF its Co-Pilot.
During line training even when PF its Co-Pilot.
Its only ever Command from the left seat.
And its the block to block time, not the scheduled time!
Yes hours will count to CASA ATPL, make sure to get the Capt signatures in the logbook, or letter of verification from the Employer.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yup go with LeadSled.
Makes me laugh hearing the Australian rules compared to what the rest of the world does.
Strictly speaking, yes go with the country rules of the licence you are flying on.
Which is pretty much this for 2 crew:
From the right seat when PF its ICUS.
From the right seat when PNF its Co-Pilot.
During line training even when PF its Co-Pilot.
Its only ever Command from the left seat.
And its the block to block time, not the scheduled time!
Yes hours will count to CASA ATPL, make sure to get the Capt signatures in the logbook, or letter of verification from the Employer.
Makes me laugh hearing the Australian rules compared to what the rest of the world does.
Strictly speaking, yes go with the country rules of the licence you are flying on.
Which is pretty much this for 2 crew:
From the right seat when PF its ICUS.
From the right seat when PNF its Co-Pilot.
During line training even when PF its Co-Pilot.
Its only ever Command from the left seat.
And its the block to block time, not the scheduled time!
Yes hours will count to CASA ATPL, make sure to get the Capt signatures in the logbook, or letter of verification from the Employer.
Its only ever Command from the left seat.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am wondering in which colum of my logbook do I log the time when I am flying the sector as PF?
is it all co-pilot time, or can I use the ICUS section for PF time?
is it all co-pilot time, or can I use the ICUS section for PF time?
I understand (and I may be wrong on this point) that by UK rules, if a copilot is given a leg and wishes to log it as ICUS, then right from the flight planning stage if there is any decision the copilot makes re the conduct of the flight he is operating as ICUS, that the captain countermands, no matter how minor in the scheme of things, the copilot immediately is not permitted to log the whole flight as ICUS. Of course whether that rule is used is another story.
There is no shame at being a copilot. Yet that is how it has seemed nowadays; hence the headlong rush for new pilots to log ICUS as a pretend captain.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: 400 Orchard Rd
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I understand that Qantas (and some other Australian operators) when conducting command type ratings on new pilots joining the company including cadets, carry out their simulator training in the right hand seat. Notwithstanding, the new pilot is given a command endorsement and not a copilot endorsement. He is not trained in the left seat for a command endorsement.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Sydney
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I understand that Qantas (and some other Australian operators) when conducting command type ratings on new pilots joining the company including cadets, carry out their simulator training in the right hand seat. Notwithstanding, the new pilot is given a command endorsement and not a copilot endorsement. He is not trained in the left seat for a command endorsement.
No requirement to be trained in both seats.
To be able to log ICUS, in Australia, you have to be flying the sector and have a command endorsement on the aircraft. This answers your second question about how your hours count towards CASA licences.
As for Qantas, my employer, all F/Os, certainly wide body F/Os (not certain about the B737), are given a command endorsement as part of their type conversion. This is because the F/O could be sitting with an S/O who only holds a co-pilot rating. I don't know if this is a legal CASA requirement, or just that Qantas thinks its a good idea but I have a command endorsement on the 767 even though I have only ever flown as an F/O from the right seat in the 767.
I log ICUS when I fly the sector and co-pilot when I don't. The line in the sand is whether or not you do the take off and landing. As an F/O I have a 20 knot cross wind limit (for reasons I will never understand). So sometimes I do the takeoff, only to have to hand over the landing to the skipper for the landing because the crosswind is greater than 20 knots. In this case I have to log the sector as co-pilot.
Here's another scenario to screw your brain. The 767 no longer has any S/Os and a lot more captains than F/Os. On the Honolulu flights we crew with two Captains and one F/O. One captain is effectively a very well paid S/O. When I fly the sector, even though I spend 1/3 of the time in the bunk, I log it as ICUS.
So to reiterate. Hold a command endorsement on type, and flying the sector which includes the takeoff and landing, ICUS. Otherwise logged as co-pilot.
Don't know how other countries do it and frankly don't care. That's how it is in the antipodes.
As for how you log hours in the UAE I have absolutely no idea. But if you want to track your hours for the purposes of CASA in Australia, then maybe you need to keep track of the sectors you've flown separately.
Last edited by IsDon; 5th Apr 2013 at 15:41.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"As for all you anal retentives in Australia on this subject, who can't tell the difference between P1 and P1 U/S"
There are 2 control seats. One is labeled P1 and the other P2. You can only occupy one of them at any given time. To manipulate flight time to give the impression of command time while sitting in the P2 seat is both dishonest and delusional regardless of what your local authority may permit you to do in the interests of meeting the command hour requirement for the issue of an ATPL.
In my opinion the only time ICUS would be a valid entry in my log book would be if I was occupying the P1 seat after having completed both a left hand seat training syllabus and passed an LPC/IR check and was undergoing command line training. Now I am acting as pilot in command under supervision until cleared to line as a captain.
In the real world of commercial aviation however, Airlines have conspired with aviation regulatory authorities to come up with a system to allow the transition of their cadets to the left hand seat of commercial jets without having to gain the actual experience which was traditionally required.
To put it all into perspective, if you are allowed or indeed expected to log your flight time as ICUS for the purpose of gaining command time for the issue of a licence, then by all means do so. However, realise too that when you come to sit in front of me for that job interview and we discuss your command experience, you may well not be the most suitable candidate having not ACTUALLY held a previous command position.
There are 2 control seats. One is labeled P1 and the other P2. You can only occupy one of them at any given time. To manipulate flight time to give the impression of command time while sitting in the P2 seat is both dishonest and delusional regardless of what your local authority may permit you to do in the interests of meeting the command hour requirement for the issue of an ATPL.
In my opinion the only time ICUS would be a valid entry in my log book would be if I was occupying the P1 seat after having completed both a left hand seat training syllabus and passed an LPC/IR check and was undergoing command line training. Now I am acting as pilot in command under supervision until cleared to line as a captain.
In the real world of commercial aviation however, Airlines have conspired with aviation regulatory authorities to come up with a system to allow the transition of their cadets to the left hand seat of commercial jets without having to gain the actual experience which was traditionally required.
To put it all into perspective, if you are allowed or indeed expected to log your flight time as ICUS for the purpose of gaining command time for the issue of a licence, then by all means do so. However, realise too that when you come to sit in front of me for that job interview and we discuss your command experience, you may well not be the most suitable candidate having not ACTUALLY held a previous command position.
Bottums Up
Originally Posted by Pack2
To manipulate flight time to give the impression of command time while sitting in the P2 seat is both dishonest and delusional regardless of what your local authority may permit you to do in the interests of meeting the command hour requirement for the issue of an ATPL.
"I log ICUS when I fly the sector and co-pilot when I don't. The line in the sand is whether or not you do the take off and landing."
So let me understand this.
You are a line checked QF 767 FO not undergoing line training for command.
If you do the takeoff and landing, you call the whole flight ICUS?
Really? If this is true, is it just me on here that finds that alarming and immoral? I'm not disputing its 'legality'.
So let me understand this.
You are a line checked QF 767 FO not undergoing line training for command.
If you do the takeoff and landing, you call the whole flight ICUS?
Really? If this is true, is it just me on here that finds that alarming and immoral? I'm not disputing its 'legality'.
Last edited by compressor stall; 6th Apr 2013 at 01:11.
Bottums Up
My only ICUS has been when rostered to be trained as PIC on type. All time in the RHS as a Co-pilot has been logged as Co-Pilot time, regardless of who did the takeoff/landing.
I figure that's why Total Aeronautical Experience is calculated by using only 50% of time logged as Co-pilot.
I figure that's why Total Aeronautical Experience is calculated by using only 50% of time logged as Co-pilot.
Last edited by Capt Claret; 6th Apr 2013 at 02:15.