C210 crash in Roma

[The Mentalist]

When I was taught Night flying. The rule was as soon as you rotate you are IFR until 1500ft then you can look out. Has worked for me the last 20 yrs. Twin ops is the same, just a little more instruments to monitor.

[Avgas172]

guessing about what happened to these unfortunates. Show a little respect.
If you want to start a thread on how to crash things, do it.

Later... Much later]

Playing devils advocate personally I prefer anything that has the potential to save another pilots / pax's life should be discussed ASAP, and that is what I have gained from this thread
Cheers
A172

[framer]

I agree with Avgas. That's how we learn. I have lost real close mates in aircraft accidents and we all sat around in the bar discussing how they may have cocked it up that very night. It isn't disrespectful in my mind, it is a part of our profession. At any stage you can leave the bar and spend some time alone, Pprune is no different.

[framer]

Further to that, how many low hour CPL's are about to do night flights over the next couple of weeks around Australia that will have read this and will be sharply focused on the instruments as a result?
This frank discussion may have just saved a life....literally.

[VH-XXX]

I've learnt a lot about night departures due to this thread. As much as I know about using instruments on takeoff etc, I didn't realise how often this must occur for people out there and how close many have come to ending it. Even if this has nothing to do with this crash it's still a valuable discussion.

As long as nobody has spoken ill of the deceased I can't see an issue with the discussion and it would appear that nobody has done that given that nobody even seems to know those involved.

[Grogmonster]

What about the Moon?

I have read all the posts with all the theories. Firstly you will get SI in any aircraft taking off into black hole. C172 to F18. It doesn't have to have great acceleration. The next issue is no one has mentioned the Moon. On the night in question the moonlight was incredibly bright. I don't know what time the moon set. Can anyone out there tell us? Those of you have flown on bright moonlight nights will know that the horizon and terrain are clearly visible and if that was the case there may have been other factors at play. Like many before me I urge you all to wait until the investigation is complete.

Groggy

[Flying Binghi]

Hmmm... gotta get me self a few more call signs...

via Avgas172;
Playing devils advocate personally I prefer anything that has the potential to save another pilots / pax's life should be discussed ASAP, and that is what I have gained from this thread

Right. So now we know yer have never read a crash comic..






.

[framer]

What do you mean Flying Binghi? ( genuine question, not being facetious)

[Flying Binghi]

via framer;
Further to that, how many low hour CPL's are about to do night flights over the next couple of weeks around Australia that will have read this and will be sharply focused on the instruments as a result?
This frank discussion may have just saved a life....literally.

"sharply focused" "instruments".... Perhaps framer can tell us which flying school/ Instructor it is that lets their "low hour CPLs" loose with out the proper most basic training..

I suspects framer is one of them Labor voting types when i reads the term "Frank discussion" used when we do not yet have a ATSB report to work with.

It used to be yer had a "frank discussion" after the facts were known.





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[Capn Bloggs]

The next issue is no one has mentioned the Moon. On the night in question the moonlight was incredibly bright. I don't know what time the moon set. Can anyone out there tell us?

The moon rose at 1633 and set at 0347. Beginning of civil twilight was 0548, according to Sundroid.

[Avgas172]

Yes bingle, I have read many, however having things reinforced is not a bad thing, and I'm not sure about anyone else but I do tend to read pprune and learn on a daily basis, I have much to learn and I have only been flying for 30 years now so I'm still a novice

[bentleg]

The moon rose at 1633 and set at 0347. Beginning of civil twilight was 0548, according to Sundroid.

According to Geoscience Australia -

roma Lat=-26°33'00" Long=+148°46'00"
TIMES OF MOONRISE AND MOONSET
(for ideal horizon & meteorological conditions)
Time zone: +10.00 hours
26/03/2013 Rise: 1712 Set: 0444

Computed using National Mapping Division's moonrisenset program, version 1.2

Regardless of who is right it would have been pretty dark at 0530

[Capn Bloggs]

26/03/2013 Rise: 1712 Set: 0444

The accident was on the 25th. Moonset 0347 confirmed.

[Grogmonster]

So the bottom line is there was no moonlight when the accident occurred. Maybe that explains a few things. Just trying to understand what happened.!!!

Groggy

[Wally Mk2]

I'd like to think that should I buy the farm God forbid that everyone here would talk about it, learn from my mistakes (if that where the case) so that we ALL can gain further knowledge to reduce the risks & stay alive!
NONE of us can say I know enough so keep discussing the accident & the many others that will follow this one (they will that's as certain as the sun will rise 2moro) as sadly mankind never learns enough to guarantee anything.

I don't have the answers to this one or any others but pilots make errors on a daily basis, learn from them so these poor unfortunates lost lives aren't in vain.


Wmk2

[Flying Binghi]

via Grogmonster;

So the bottom line is there was no moonlight when the accident occurred. Maybe that explains a few things. Just trying to understand what happened.!!!

Maybe it do, maybe it don't.



Looks fairly obvious what happened... though....

- Were the A/H working ?

- Were there a new wiz bang electric panel fitted that went fizz just at rotation ? And if there were a new panel were the pilot familiar with it ? How long had the pilot been using the old six pack ?

- Was there an engine failure ?

- Fog ?

- Pilot incapacitation ?

Probably some more factors i haven't thought of though an accident report will help there...






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[Tee Emm]

Every time you looked away from the scan, he would give you a clip under the ear with his torch!

I must say, when I hear of an instructor that is so lacking in the ability to instruct without physically hitting the student, the first thing I would think of is not to believe anything he says. These sort of idiots should be scrubbed during their instructors course if that sort of temperement starts to show up. Unfortunately some flying schools are so intent in making a buck doing instructor courses they let anyone through as long as he pays up front.

[Flying Binghi]

via Avgas172;
Yes bingle, I have read many, however having things reinforced is not a bad thing, and I'm not sure about anyone else but I do tend to read PPRuNe and learn on a daily basis, I have much to learn and I have only been flying for 30 years now so I'm still a novice.

Hmmm... i see then that Avgas172 and Co will be putting up a weekly thread looking at some of the old crash comic reports so that we all may comment and learn from factual accident reports..







.

[Centaurus]

That's exactly how I do it, follow the flight director bars, and turn on the autopilot as soon as I can, and don't touch anything till you get to 1000ft AGL.

For those of us that fly aircraft with a flight director, I set it up so it displays 10 degrees up in the line up position then fly straight into it after rotate.

Interesting comments in view of Pprune discussions on other forums on the subject of automation dependency and it's role in accidents. Even the FAA have finally come to the conclusion this is a serious trend and have recommended operators encourage their pilots to fly manually when circumstances permit.

Even so, there is little doubt that some pilots prefer to avoid manual flying as they lack confidence in themselves because of their addiction to flight directors.

The highlighted comment above is a case in point. If on night departures in general aviation types you hastily lock on to flight director at lift off and engage the autopilot "as soon as I can", then is it possible you may have a case of automation dependency without being aware of it?

[framer]

I suspects framer is one of them Labor voting types when i reads the term "Frank discussion" used when we do not yet have a ATSB report to work with.

I've voted right of centre at every election since I was eligible to vote. I'm sure nobody on here cares how I've voted but it shows that even the mighty Flying Binghi gets it wrong sometimes. At the end of the day Binghi, people are learning from this thread. You can lament the past

used to be yer had a "frank discussion" after the facts were known

all you like but it won't help anyone.
Have a good day, Framer