Engine Management Course
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2 LOP - use at your own risk
The LOP method was endorsed in this company previously, and cost them two engines. Just one more thing for a busy commercial pilot to monitor in single pilot ops. remember Jaba that in aircraft with those big roundy ones, there was a flight engineeer to moniter engine stuff.
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Rutan ...Indeed 
But lets see what a very high power setting LOP looks like. 82% power, 1000' WOT/2500 and about 70dF LOP.
Geez those CHT's dropped a heap....and only a few knots slower (less cooling air too).
But lets see what a very high power setting LOP looks like. 82% power, 1000' WOT/2500 and about 70dF LOP.
Geez those CHT's dropped a heap....and only a few knots slower (less cooling air too).
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Roughly 640 DC-6s and DC-7s were built, and similar numbers apply to them.
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One of the main sources of the old wives tale that running lean ruins engines is that many pilots don't know the difference between lean of where they were taught to run the engine and lean of peak.
Lycoming says you can run at peak EGT at 75% power or less and Continental is more conservative with 65% .
A pilot who normally operates at 75% power and 100 deg ROP decides this leaning sounds pretty good but being conservative won't push it as far as his mates advise and will try 50deg less than his usual setting.
He has just put his engine in the worst operating environment possible.
When eventually a valve burns out or a crack appears in a cylinder he entertains his barfly mates with tales about what a s*#t idea it is to lean. Had he leaned to lean of peak instead of lean of usual setting it would have been a different story.
As Jabba said earlier. Keep your cylinders cool by operating either well rich or well lean of peak EGT but not half arsed either side.
Cheers RA
Lycoming says you can run at peak EGT at 75% power or less and Continental is more conservative with 65% .
A pilot who normally operates at 75% power and 100 deg ROP decides this leaning sounds pretty good but being conservative won't push it as far as his mates advise and will try 50deg less than his usual setting.
He has just put his engine in the worst operating environment possible.
When eventually a valve burns out or a crack appears in a cylinder he entertains his barfly mates with tales about what a s*#t idea it is to lean. Had he leaned to lean of peak instead of lean of usual setting it would have been a different story.
As Jabba said earlier. Keep your cylinders cool by operating either well rich or well lean of peak EGT but not half arsed either side.
Cheers RA
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Clinton, I do not fly them and do not maintain them, I oversee them.
I have no position one way or the other on the GAMI injectors.
Private operations are different to commercial operations, our margins are low.
One dead engine takes a big percentage of a job.
I have no position one way or the other on the GAMI injectors.
Private operations are different to commercial operations, our margins are low.
One dead engine takes a big percentage of a job.
Jaba, do you mind editing that photo so the skid ball is in the centre, you're making me look bad, 
.
.
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ROP is the best
I have operated a fleet of IO-520 piston twins for years. Over that time I have probably gone through at least twenty engines which I have run to 2000 hours TBO (CASA approved). I have fitted them all with Gami's. My pilots have been instructed to run full throttle at 7 - 10 thousand ft and 2300 RPM. leaning is 50 - 75 ROP. Yes they will run smooth LOP but I have forbidden such operations as to much power is lost (read speed). We have never had any problem with any of the engines other than a heap of those rubbish ECI cylinders cracking a few years back.
My point is that running 50 - 75 ROP is great and will not damage your engine in any way. The POH does not suggest running LOP.
Groggy
My point is that running 50 - 75 ROP is great and will not damage your engine in any way. The POH does not suggest running LOP.
Groggy
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Originally Posted by peterc005
@Volumex - what's the registration of your Airtourer? They are a great little plane.
Victas are great planes. I learned to fly in the 80's in a 100 hp version. To me, 100 hp is about right. It would cruise along at just short of 100 knots and the weights were so easy to remember: 748 MTOW and 478 empty. The old 100 hp had a better useful load than our 150 hp version
[/thread drift]
Last edited by Volumex; 16th Feb 2013 at 05:19.
A 1980 PA31 Navajo I operate is approved to operate 50deg LOP - and that's directly from the AFM/POH. The manual even details a procedure to get to a LOP power setting if the EGT temp limit is reached prior to LOP being achieved (in a nutshell, reduce MP, continue leaning to 50-75 deg LOP then add back the MP).
That's with Piper's crappy single point EGT & temp. probes. I wasn't too happy not knowing what was really happening - especially with the engines being turbocharged - so recommended to the owner we get an EDM installed. Put one in and LOP is great. Glad for the EDM though. The factory probes aren't necessarily the most limiting cylinder or EGT/TIT.
Fortunately no need for GAMI injectors - it runs smoothly at the recommended LOP with its stock injectors. Note that that means the *richest* cylinder is 50 deg LOP so the others are somewhat leaner. Go much beyond there though and it starts getting rough.
That's with Piper's crappy single point EGT & temp. probes. I wasn't too happy not knowing what was really happening - especially with the engines being turbocharged - so recommended to the owner we get an EDM installed. Put one in and LOP is great. Glad for the EDM though. The factory probes aren't necessarily the most limiting cylinder or EGT/TIT.
Fortunately no need for GAMI injectors - it runs smoothly at the recommended LOP with its stock injectors. Note that that means the *richest* cylinder is 50 deg LOP so the others are somewhat leaner. Go much beyond there though and it starts getting rough.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 16th Feb 2013 at 05:38.
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Grogmonster
Well no surprises there....outside red box But you could save a tone of money on fuel from that position and be no worse off in engine life, maybe even a tiny bit better.
You are almost optimum operations, but not quite.
blackie
That is BS right there. The engines know nothing of the kind of operation they are used in. 
Time to stop the LOP v ROP debate.
APS course is about TOTAL engine management, engine monitors and learning how not to be the dog in front of a TV, which is where most pilots are at, especially the commercial pilots and LAME's
Attend the course.....It is guaranteed to be the best return on investment you will ever make. No matter how you want to operate.
Tin
Set of GAMI's would improve it quite a lot. By the way the Chieftan manual is dangerous in its climb power settings, you should watch them on the dyno 
Run richer in the climb
I have fitted them all with Gami's. My pilots have been instructed to run full throttle at 7 - 10 thousand ft and 2300 RPM. leaning is 50 - 75 ROP.
But you could save a tone of money on fuel from that position and be no worse off in engine life, maybe even a tiny bit better.You are almost optimum operations, but not quite.
blackie
Private operations are different to commercial operations, our margins are low.
One dead engine takes a big percentage of a job.
One dead engine takes a big percentage of a job.
Time to stop the LOP v ROP debate.
APS course is about TOTAL engine management, engine monitors and learning how not to be the dog in front of a TV, which is where most pilots are at, especially the commercial pilots and LAME's
Attend the course.....It is guaranteed to be the best return on investment you will ever make. No matter how you want to operate.
Tin
Fortunately no need for GAMI injectors - it runs smoothly at the recommended LOP with its stock injectors. Note that that means the *richest* cylinder is 50 deg LOP so the others are somewhat leaner. Go much beyond there though and it starts getting rough.
Run richer in the climb
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No.
Gami spread under 0.5gph with some tweaking done by Andrew Denyer at Riverina Airmotive in Adelaide.
I am going to try a set while they are in my possession encounters to their new owner in April. Just to see what results I get.
The Gamijector is superior in its nozzle design, and the way it sprays, so I expect a slight improvement due to atomisation. And I do run an upper deck pressure feed already like a TC or TN setup.
Any way back to topic, the APS courses are all about education. Problem is the ones who squeal the most are the ones who need it the most. They don't know what they don't know and won't risk a money back guarantee. Horse to water thing.
If only they knew the money they would save on LAMEs bills by telling the mechanic what's wrong, not spending a bomb on unnecessary work that does not do any good.
How many CPLs can honestly say they can pick an exhaust valve problem 20-40 hours before it fails?
How many twin drivers like Chieftans for example know what to do when the MP is inexplicably out of Sync? And that one can kill you and your pax. Almost killed George Bralys brother many years ago.
Commercial operators like blackie would yield far greater ROI if they just put their pride aside and went to a class.
Morno, you are off the hook, that was me taking photos myself and not keeping rudder pressure, but you can cop that one.
So now we have all the BS out of the way, anyone with genuine questions not rubbish rock throwing wish to ask a question, they can be basic, but never a dumb question so long as its sensible.
A Squared, if you wish to share your experiences with me, PM me your details. Love to hear about your 24,000 hrs of LOP days
Advanced Pilot
Gami spread under 0.5gph with some tweaking done by Andrew Denyer at Riverina Airmotive in Adelaide.
I am going to try a set while they are in my possession encounters to their new owner in April. Just to see what results I get.
The Gamijector is superior in its nozzle design, and the way it sprays, so I expect a slight improvement due to atomisation. And I do run an upper deck pressure feed already like a TC or TN setup.
Any way back to topic, the APS courses are all about education. Problem is the ones who squeal the most are the ones who need it the most. They don't know what they don't know and won't risk a money back guarantee. Horse to water thing.
If only they knew the money they would save on LAMEs bills by telling the mechanic what's wrong, not spending a bomb on unnecessary work that does not do any good.
How many CPLs can honestly say they can pick an exhaust valve problem 20-40 hours before it fails?
How many twin drivers like Chieftans for example know what to do when the MP is inexplicably out of Sync? And that one can kill you and your pax. Almost killed George Bralys brother many years ago.
Commercial operators like blackie would yield far greater ROI if they just put their pride aside and went to a class.
Morno, you are off the hook, that was me taking photos myself and not keeping rudder pressure, but you can cop that one.
So now we have all the BS out of the way, anyone with genuine questions not rubbish rock throwing wish to ask a question, they can be basic, but never a dumb question so long as its sensible.
A Squared, if you wish to share your experiences with me, PM me your details. Love to hear about your 24,000 hrs of LOP days
Advanced Pilot
Last edited by Jabawocky; 16th Feb 2013 at 11:44.
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Groggy,
You are operating at 65% at 7k at the maximum, and mostly less so sure you can run 50-75 ROP and with Gamis run accurately there.
Can I suggest you attend either location. You will soon see that despite the good results you are getting, you are operating where peak pressure is at its highest and not achieving best power, through to where max power is achieved. Yet for a very slight reduction in speed you will have much healthier ICPs and much lower CHTs and save around 20% of your fuel bill.
With good climb technique you may improve operations there too! You are close to optimal operation but not quite there.
I fear you may be almost seeing the facts and data but still hanging onto a warm fuzzy feeling of a superstition. Seeing the data generated before your own eyes is a truly enlightening experience, and nobody else in the world is bothering to do it.
As for the reason why the POH does not mention the other half of the graph, that is because stock engines, which yours are not, could not operate there. Pilots and their wives or pax do not like engines that run rough. So that half of the combustion curves was just simply org noted as unreachable. This is the truth.
400,000,000 plus hours of airline data, plus the unknown more flown is not evidence enough. You need to sit in my seat, come do it to my engine, all the data in front of you.
Take up the Deakin challenge
I have operated a fleet of IO-520 piston twins for years. Over that time I have probably gone through at least twenty engines which I have run to 2000 hours TBO (CASA approved). I have fitted them all with Gami's. My pilots have been instructed to run full throttle at 7 - 10 thousand ft and 2300 RPM. leaning is 50 - 75 ROP. Yes they will run smooth LOP but I have forbidden such operations as to much power is lost (read speed). We have never had any problem with any of the engines other than a heap of those rubbish ECI cylinders cracking a few years back.
My point is that running 50 - 75 ROP is great and will not damage your engine in any way. The POH does not suggest running LOP.
Groggy
My point is that running 50 - 75 ROP is great and will not damage your engine in any way. The POH does not suggest running LOP.
Groggy
Can I suggest you attend either location. You will soon see that despite the good results you are getting, you are operating where peak pressure is at its highest and not achieving best power, through to where max power is achieved. Yet for a very slight reduction in speed you will have much healthier ICPs and much lower CHTs and save around 20% of your fuel bill.
With good climb technique you may improve operations there too! You are close to optimal operation but not quite there.
I fear you may be almost seeing the facts and data but still hanging onto a warm fuzzy feeling of a superstition. Seeing the data generated before your own eyes is a truly enlightening experience, and nobody else in the world is bothering to do it.
As for the reason why the POH does not mention the other half of the graph, that is because stock engines, which yours are not, could not operate there. Pilots and their wives or pax do not like engines that run rough. So that half of the combustion curves was just simply org noted as unreachable. This is the truth.
400,000,000 plus hours of airline data, plus the unknown more flown is not evidence enough. You need to sit in my seat, come do it to my engine, all the data in front of you.
Take up the Deakin challenge
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Jabawocky and others if you please!
A pair of pilots on aircraft ferry depart an aerodrome, partial engine failure shortly thereafter, barely able to maintain height A045, engine running rough then oil starts appearing on the wings (low wing aircraft) they land. Cracked cylinder.
How quickly can you crack a cylinder from new or overhaul? 1 hour, 2 hours? Does it take hours of mis-use before it lets go?
Can a cracked cylinder be picked up on the ground? How?
A pair of pilots on aircraft ferry depart an aerodrome, partial engine failure shortly thereafter, barely able to maintain height A045, engine running rough then oil starts appearing on the wings (low wing aircraft) they land. Cracked cylinder.
How quickly can you crack a cylinder from new or overhaul? 1 hour, 2 hours? Does it take hours of mis-use before it lets go?
Can a cracked cylinder be picked up on the ground? How?
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How quick boys and girls? Can you crack a cylinder, fresh from overhaul after 1 hours mis-handling? Would a cracked cylinder be picked up on a 100 hourly? How? Compression tests?