Day VFR Syllabus Question
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Day VFR Syllabus Question
G'Day.
I have a question with regard to the Day VFR Syllabus, following my PPL Flight Test. It regards diversions, which is C8.7 in the Syllabus. The problem is that I did not know that a flightplan amendment during my PPL flight test, so did not call up FIR and update the flightplan. When I got back, the testing officer informed me that I had a partial pass, and needed to redo a diversion as well as a couple of other things. I need to fix those other points, but I don't want to have to do another mini-nav at the moment if I can help it.
The diversion was done in VMC in Class G Airspace as a VFR flight. We started and finished the flight in Class D, but the diversion was totally in Class G. We had a SARTIME that I updated just after the diversion, but were not under a full SARWATCH. We were not flying with full reporting procedures, nor were we making SKEDS.
Ignoring for the fact that it is good practice, do people feel that it is an actual requirement for a diversion in accordance with the Syllabus. All the Syllabus says is 'Advises of intention to divert for traffic separation'. Since this is Class G, there is no traffic separation provided.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Thanks
Darryl
I have a question with regard to the Day VFR Syllabus, following my PPL Flight Test. It regards diversions, which is C8.7 in the Syllabus. The problem is that I did not know that a flightplan amendment during my PPL flight test, so did not call up FIR and update the flightplan. When I got back, the testing officer informed me that I had a partial pass, and needed to redo a diversion as well as a couple of other things. I need to fix those other points, but I don't want to have to do another mini-nav at the moment if I can help it.
The diversion was done in VMC in Class G Airspace as a VFR flight. We started and finished the flight in Class D, but the diversion was totally in Class G. We had a SARTIME that I updated just after the diversion, but were not under a full SARWATCH. We were not flying with full reporting procedures, nor were we making SKEDS.
Ignoring for the fact that it is good practice, do people feel that it is an actual requirement for a diversion in accordance with the Syllabus. All the Syllabus says is 'Advises of intention to divert for traffic separation'. Since this is Class G, there is no traffic separation provided.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Thanks
Darryl
Yes, you do call Flightwatch with your amended plan ASAP after your diversion. It is part of your SARTIME that if something goes wrong AusSAR do know where you have headed of to. It is also for traffic reasons. Your position and intents are passed on to IFR traffic as known VFR.
Just get back up there an re-do your knowledge deficiency and don't forget to grill your instructor for not showing you or at least talking to you on diversion procedures.
Just get back up there an re-do your knowledge deficiency and don't forget to grill your instructor for not showing you or at least talking to you on diversion procedures.
Ah crud! Showing my age
Known=FS era
Observed= modern new age if I am showing on a radar return
ENR 3.3.11
But you still need to tell someone where you are going if you are changing your plan.
ENR 1.10.8.4
Known=FS era
Observed= modern new age if I am showing on a radar return
ENR 3.3.11
But you still need to tell someone where you are going if you are changing your plan.
ENR 1.10.8.4
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Your VFR flight plan amendment is a SAR issue.
If you go missing, they will listen to the ATC tapes.
For that reason you should advise flight service " ABC VFR flight plan amendment". They will tell you to go ahead then just advise divert position Time/altitude/time for each subsequent position and that's it. It will simply be recorded.
Your Instructor should really have done that with you. You won't need to do a nav to cover it though I wouldn't have thought but don't you have to do a diversionary flight test?
Guard
If you go missing, they will listen to the ATC tapes.
For that reason you should advise flight service " ABC VFR flight plan amendment". They will tell you to go ahead then just advise divert position Time/altitude/time for each subsequent position and that's it. It will simply be recorded.
Your Instructor should really have done that with you. You won't need to do a nav to cover it though I wouldn't have thought but don't you have to do a diversionary flight test?
Guard
QUite simply, if it is in the Day VFR Syllabus then it must be demonstrated in the flight test.
Your instructor should have given you a copy of the syllabus or shown you where to access it.
Your instructor should have reviewed the syllabus to ensure he was teaching you each element of every unit
Your CFI should have ensured the school had a system that ensured all elements of the Day VFR syllabus were included in your training and were a required part of the performance standards.
Taking your confusion at face value (no reason to doubt you) I'd still bet you there is a box ticked somewhere in your student records that says you have not only been taught to call FIS, but that you have done it twice and assessed as competent.
Your instructor should have given you a copy of the syllabus or shown you where to access it.
Your instructor should have reviewed the syllabus to ensure he was teaching you each element of every unit
Your CFI should have ensured the school had a system that ensured all elements of the Day VFR syllabus were included in your training and were a required part of the performance standards.
Taking your confusion at face value (no reason to doubt you) I'd still bet you there is a box ticked somewhere in your student records that says you have not only been taught to call FIS, but that you have done it twice and assessed as competent.
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 8th Oct 2012 at 20:21.
Don't quote me on this, but I think when you contact centre with a flight plan amendment, they simply record what you say( or put a marker on the recording) and if you are to go missing they know where to look..
Ranga might be able to help with this..
Ranga might be able to help with this..
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Congratulations, you passed!
Sure, you need to do a quick flight to demonstrate what you missed, but hey, it's as good as a pass.
You no doubt have more hours to do on the way to your CPL (if that's what you are up to) and the additional half hour will still go towards that in your logbook, so no loss really. Why not spend most of that extra flight under the hood to better prepare yourselves for the perils of VMC into IMC under PPL as per the other thread re YCAB? Further education can only ever be a positive thing!
Easy!
(and that's how to turn a negative experience in to a positive one)
Sure, you need to do a quick flight to demonstrate what you missed, but hey, it's as good as a pass.
You no doubt have more hours to do on the way to your CPL (if that's what you are up to) and the additional half hour will still go towards that in your logbook, so no loss really. Why not spend most of that extra flight under the hood to better prepare yourselves for the perils of VMC into IMC under PPL as per the other thread re YCAB? Further education can only ever be a positive thing!
Easy!
(and that's how to turn a negative experience in to a positive one)
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Definite fail (there are only 4 results for a flight test: pass, fail (with or without credits), discontinued or cancelled) - particularly if the diversion track was over inhospitable terrain, like Taralga to The Oaks for example.
Day VFR Syllabus C7.2 Recognise and Manage Errors - Monitor aircraft systems, flight environment and crewmembers, collects and analyses information to identify potential or actual errors
and
Implements countermeasures to preent errors or takes action in the time available to correct errors before the aircraft enters a UAS.
Definition of error - Action or inaction that result in deviation from appropriate intentions.
Surely the intention when you submitted the SARTIME was to inform the relevant people where you would be flying; and this intention is entirely appropriate. What is not appropriate is the decision not to inform them of a significant change to tracking because of some bush lawyer interpretation of AIP/Day VFR Syllabus.
Similar arguments can be made with reference to C6.2, C6.3 (Communicates plans of action - if appropriate), C6.4, C6.5 and C7.1.
Why should that be ignored? If you understand that it is good practice, then what is the problem? All too often pilots ignore good practice in favour of a (usually wrong) interpretation of a 'rule' and the ATO is the last defence before a pilot is licensed.
Having said the above, if that was the only error you made then i'm sure the ATO would have simply debriefed you on that point and you would have passed.
Yes, it is.
Day VFR Syllabus C7.2 Recognise and Manage Errors - Monitor aircraft systems, flight environment and crewmembers, collects and analyses information to identify potential or actual errors
and
Implements countermeasures to preent errors or takes action in the time available to correct errors before the aircraft enters a UAS.
Definition of error - Action or inaction that result in deviation from appropriate intentions.
Surely the intention when you submitted the SARTIME was to inform the relevant people where you would be flying; and this intention is entirely appropriate. What is not appropriate is the decision not to inform them of a significant change to tracking because of some bush lawyer interpretation of AIP/Day VFR Syllabus.
Similar arguments can be made with reference to C6.2, C6.3 (Communicates plans of action - if appropriate), C6.4, C6.5 and C7.1.
Ignoring for the fact that it is good practice
If you understand that it is good practice, then what is the problem? All too often pilots ignore good practice in favour of a (usually wrong) interpretation of a 'rule' and the ATO is the last defence before a pilot is licensed.Having said the above, if that was the only error you made then i'm sure the ATO would have simply debriefed you on that point and you would have passed.
do people feel that it is an actual requirement for a diversion in accordance with the Syllabus.
Last edited by scavenger; 11th Oct 2012 at 02:22.
Definite fail....
He was asked to demonstrate a diversion. Which he did. He didn't run out of fuel, he didn't violate airspace and by all accounts the diversion was undertaken safely and successfully.
Surely so far there would have to be a tick in the diversion item on the assessment.
So, he didn't contact anyone and amend the flight plan. So, what? AIP ENR 1.10-8 section 4 only says that "When flight notification details have previously been notified to ATS, pilots SHOULD advise....."
Note its a should and not a must. Considering flight plans are not a requirement for VFR flight, and the AIP doesn't mandate a notification of change. To fail the guy on these grounds is stretching the limits of fairness. Sure the ATO should ask further questions to ensure the candidate is aware of good airmanship, etc.
Honeslty, at PPL level, if the flight was conducted safely and the candidate showed he was competant, then this seems a bit harsh to fail on. Maybe in this case it was more the straw that broke the camels back.
But to say that its a definite fail....have you seen the standards that other pilots are passing their PPL's with? If this is all he did wrong...solid pass in my book.
The more important general issue in my view is: what really happens to the changed information passed on to Centre/Flightwatch?
Scenario:
Weekend Warrior puts in a domestic notification of a VFR flight A to B to C to D, with a SARTIME of 110730 for arrival at D.
At 110330 WW calls Centre/Flightwatch to advise that she’s at B and intend to divert, at C, to Q via F, and nominates a SARTIME of 110745 for arrival at Q.
Who does what with that information, and when?
Scenario:
Weekend Warrior puts in a domestic notification of a VFR flight A to B to C to D, with a SARTIME of 110730 for arrival at D.
At 110330 WW calls Centre/Flightwatch to advise that she’s at B and intend to divert, at C, to Q via F, and nominates a SARTIME of 110745 for arrival at Q.
Who does what with that information, and when?
At 110330 WW calls Centre/Flightwatch to advise that she’s at B and intend to divert, at C, to Q via F, and nominates a SARTIME of 110745 for arrival at Q.
Who does what with that information, and when?
Serious question.
Who does what with that information, and when?
Serious question.
Who does what with that information, and when?
I'd like to hear from an ATCer on this.
Last edited by bentleg; 13th Oct 2012 at 08:36.
I'd like to hear from an ATCer on this.
The old SARTIME for D has to be cancelled and a new SARTIME set up for Q by ATC.
What else?
(It's all on the tape if he does not show at F).
If I'm given amended details, I will amend any flight plan in TAAATS and also pass details to Censar.
Note: A VFR plan will only get into TAAATS if they will use controlled airspace at any time.
Note: A VFR plan will only get into TAAATS if they will use controlled airspace at any time.
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Dr, once a VFR becomes 'known' to an ATC it must be passed as traffic to an IFR aircraft if it affects it.
On our group VFR flight plan amendments passed to ATC on VHF are recorded on a scratch pad with the time received. The time is noted to make it easier to track down on the recording should Censar (or anybody else) require the information. If you amend your SARTIME via ATC or flight watch it is passed via the AFTN to Censar.
On our group VFR flight plan amendments passed to ATC on VHF are recorded on a scratch pad with the time received. The time is noted to make it easier to track down on the recording should Censar (or anybody else) require the information. If you amend your SARTIME via ATC or flight watch it is passed via the AFTN to Censar.
