Resume Gripes.
and if you suck d1ck long enough you'll get the career you deserve.
Thanks for the responses to my question, basically as I thought, good to know though as i've been applying for a lot of jobs...I've been shortlisted for 3 jobs in the last 3months but seem to keep getting just beaten out and not getting a lot of feedback as to where i've fallen short. Keep getting told it was just a matter of someone more qualified but that doesn't really help me with the next application!! And yes, before someone suggests it, I've met the minimums for all the jobs i've been applying for!!
Another question, slightly oddball this time. Has anyone ever personally experienced something similar to this old tale:
Chief Pilot sitting with a stack of resumes infront of him, roughly selects the first half of this pile and promptly drops it in the bin exclaiming, "I don't want any unlucky pilots!"
Heard it a few times, keen to find out if anyones experienced it or maybe whom its attributed to!!
Maybe you should.
Sending resumes out from Melbourne won't cause a CP to prioritise you and fall over him / herself to speak with you when there are many others with the gumption to turn up and present themselves personally. NT operators commonly get 50 - 100 resumes per week by e-mail.
Unless, of course, you have massive amounts of the "200 series" time that these operators are supposed to cherish... that would be a different story.
Minor point - but isn't 08 July (the day of your post and alleged telephone call) a Sunday? Most operators of charter in the NT are not open (at least in the office) on Sundays and it is unlikely that the CP will respond on the Sabbath...
Sending resumes out from Melbourne won't cause a CP to prioritise you and fall over him / herself to speak with you when there are many others with the gumption to turn up and present themselves personally. NT operators commonly get 50 - 100 resumes per week by e-mail.
Unless, of course, you have massive amounts of the "200 series" time that these operators are supposed to cherish... that would be a different story.
Minor point - but isn't 08 July (the day of your post and alleged telephone call) a Sunday? Most operators of charter in the NT are not open (at least in the office) on Sundays and it is unlikely that the CP will respond on the Sabbath...
Last edited by Flying Bear; 8th Jul 2012 at 21:42.
Fact is that in a very competitive employment market sector, employers have to decide how to reject what might otherwise be technically capable applicants. If an employer has 1 position and 5 technically capable applicants, mathematics requires 4 to be rejected. In those circumstances, any flaw in the application ‘helps’ the employer to justify rejection. Remember: the average time dedicated by an employer to reviewing each application is around 2 minutes.
And I think junior pilots tend to make the mistake of believing there’s a complete separation between his (it’s usually a ‘him’) airmanship on the one hand, and his attention to detail in areas like written communication and his judgment calls when including a picture, in a résumé, of him with an arm around his mate at the pub giving the ‘thumbs up’. Fact is that most employers don’t consider there’s a complete separation. Further, even if there is a complete separation, the employer wants employees who are going to reflect well on the business. Bad judgments and slack attitudes of employees on the ground can still reflect badly on the employer, even if completely unrelated to aircraft operations.
Finally, it’s a cruel world out there. Fact is that sometimes bad applicants get good jobs, and good applicants don’t. Fact is that there are bad employers who would prefer ‘morally malleable’ employees over people prepared to stand by their principles. If you’re a good applicant and can’t find a good employer, do yourself a favour and go mining for a while. A couple of hundred grand in your bank account will make the world look a little different.
And I think junior pilots tend to make the mistake of believing there’s a complete separation between his (it’s usually a ‘him’) airmanship on the one hand, and his attention to detail in areas like written communication and his judgment calls when including a picture, in a résumé, of him with an arm around his mate at the pub giving the ‘thumbs up’. Fact is that most employers don’t consider there’s a complete separation. Further, even if there is a complete separation, the employer wants employees who are going to reflect well on the business. Bad judgments and slack attitudes of employees on the ground can still reflect badly on the employer, even if completely unrelated to aircraft operations.
Finally, it’s a cruel world out there. Fact is that sometimes bad applicants get good jobs, and good applicants don’t. Fact is that there are bad employers who would prefer ‘morally malleable’ employees over people prepared to stand by their principles. If you’re a good applicant and can’t find a good employer, do yourself a favour and go mining for a while. A couple of hundred grand in your bank account will make the world look a little different.
A question for those of you guys that are employers...
Is it generally a bad idea, or a good way to "stand out from the crowd" by snail mailing a hardcopy of your application & CV to the operator when the advertisement provides an email address for applications?
Personally I would follow the advertisement application directions, but am I limiting myself to being just another number in potentially hundreds of applications received by doing this?
Is it generally a bad idea, or a good way to "stand out from the crowd" by snail mailing a hardcopy of your application & CV to the operator when the advertisement provides an email address for applications?
Personally I would follow the advertisement application directions, but am I limiting myself to being just another number in potentially hundreds of applications received by doing this?
Creampuff, nice post, but it doesn't strike me as a particularly competitive market sector at all. At least it is not competitive on ability.
From the above stories (and others I know from my own experience) I would say many pilots miss out through the sheer volume of applicants combined with lazy/incompetent or just busy CPs. It is much easier to give someone a job when they follow up their résumé by walking through the front door and having a chat, than it is to Wade through hundreds of CVs while you should be working.
I know some great pilots who missed out on positions and some worthless, lazy and stupid (in the truest sense of the word) people who have secured employment. Many of the latter become CPs because all the good pilots move onto greener pastures. I'm not saying this with any bitterness, as I have never been knocked back for a flying job to date, just an observation of an industry whose culture seems to run counter to the rest of the business world.
From the above stories (and others I know from my own experience) I would say many pilots miss out through the sheer volume of applicants combined with lazy/incompetent or just busy CPs. It is much easier to give someone a job when they follow up their résumé by walking through the front door and having a chat, than it is to Wade through hundreds of CVs while you should be working.
I know some great pilots who missed out on positions and some worthless, lazy and stupid (in the truest sense of the word) people who have secured employment. Many of the latter become CPs because all the good pilots move onto greener pastures. I'm not saying this with any bitterness, as I have never been knocked back for a flying job to date, just an observation of an industry whose culture seems to run counter to the rest of the business world.
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Maybe you should.
Sending resumes out from Melbourne won't cause a CP to prioritise you and fall over him / herself to speak with you when there are many others with the gumption to turn up and present themselves personally. NT operators commonly get 50 - 100 resumes per week by e-mail.
Sending resumes out from Melbourne won't cause a CP to prioritise you and fall over him / herself to speak with you when there are many others with the gumption to turn up and present themselves personally. NT operators commonly get 50 - 100 resumes per week by e-mail.
I love KingRB's idea of mailing a hard copy of the documents. But is it generally a bad idea
The hard copy letter would most likely be neither here nor there for most CPs - e-mail is fine and more easily organised for recall.
As advocated several times above, the best pitch is an actual visit. Most experienced pilots know the pain of this, but unfortunately our industry has shaped that way and although I go against the notion of "incompetent CPs" raised above as a reasoning for their lack of response, I would offer that busy CPs have lots of things they need to be doing and the best way to get their attention is to actually be there physically. A decent CP will take the time to say "g'day" or alternatively will have some "local procedure" for when it is best to call in. Remember, the CP's job is difficult enough without being required to constantly respond to solicitations from hopeful pilots, especially if the Company is not recruiting and has not advertised. It is nice when a CP does respond, though, but the sheer volume of applicants would preclude a response to everyone and although that may be seen as rude by the applicant, bear in mind there is two sides to every story. So, stand out from the crowd, but be patient and realise the greater the effort, the more likely your success will be for at least getting an interview!
Never buy a CP a beer to try and win a position...
If you have questions of a CP that you feel need to be discussed before physically visiting, maybe you should try an e-mail to the CP with those questions and maybe he / she will respond in detail at their convenience. Where a CP is currently busy when you call (say, doing a flight check or similar if they are an ATO) they are not likely to drop everything to take your call. This is not a lack of professional courtesy! I'm sure you'd be a tad annoyed if, during your check with the CP, he interrupted you to take a call from a new CPL interstate who he / she has never met hoping to secure a job...
As advocated several times above, the best pitch is an actual visit. Most experienced pilots know the pain of this, but unfortunately our industry has shaped that way and although I go against the notion of "incompetent CPs" raised above as a reasoning for their lack of response, I would offer that busy CPs have lots of things they need to be doing and the best way to get their attention is to actually be there physically. A decent CP will take the time to say "g'day" or alternatively will have some "local procedure" for when it is best to call in. Remember, the CP's job is difficult enough without being required to constantly respond to solicitations from hopeful pilots, especially if the Company is not recruiting and has not advertised. It is nice when a CP does respond, though, but the sheer volume of applicants would preclude a response to everyone and although that may be seen as rude by the applicant, bear in mind there is two sides to every story. So, stand out from the crowd, but be patient and realise the greater the effort, the more likely your success will be for at least getting an interview!
Never buy a CP a beer to try and win a position...
If you have questions of a CP that you feel need to be discussed before physically visiting, maybe you should try an e-mail to the CP with those questions and maybe he / she will respond in detail at their convenience. Where a CP is currently busy when you call (say, doing a flight check or similar if they are an ATO) they are not likely to drop everything to take your call. This is not a lack of professional courtesy! I'm sure you'd be a tad annoyed if, during your check with the CP, he interrupted you to take a call from a new CPL interstate who he / she has never met hoping to secure a job...
Sitting in Melbourne will NOT get you a job.
Get up and go up north.
If you can give me a good reason as to why you shouldn't, I'll listen. But I bet you can't,
.
morno
Get up and go up north.
If you can give me a good reason as to why you shouldn't, I'll listen. But I bet you can't,
.morno
Hi Flying Bear,
I'm referring specifically to Ixixly's above post regarding a CP simply dumping the first half of the pile because he couldn't be bothered looking at them when I say that. I'm not referring to anyone I have known. As you say, they are generally busy and are not HR staff.
Best one I know of yet is from a mate who flew from Darwin to Melbourne for an interview and sim ride (obviously a larger operator). When he landed in Mel there was a message on his phone saying it was cancelled; no explanation, no re-schedule and no contact number! Incompetent. I would have followed up with a statement of demand from my solicitor personally.
Anyway, several months later he scored a gig with one of the majors and the original company that had earlier stood him up called to offer him another position! You can guess where he told them to jam it!
although I go against the notion of "incompetent CPs" raised above as a reasoning for their lack of response
Best one I know of yet is from a mate who flew from Darwin to Melbourne for an interview and sim ride (obviously a larger operator). When he landed in Mel there was a message on his phone saying it was cancelled; no explanation, no re-schedule and no contact number! Incompetent. I would have followed up with a statement of demand from my solicitor personally.
Anyway, several months later he scored a gig with one of the majors and the original company that had earlier stood him up called to offer him another position! You can guess where he told them to jam it!
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Makeithappencaptain: I understand what you are saying here:
and can sympathise with you to a certain extent.
However, as someone who a few years back came to this country for work, I can see both sides to your argument.
If someone states on their resume that they hold a NZCAA Commercial licence with ratings (they're called ratings over there) on x, y, z aircraft, then I dont see how that is a problem? In fact for an employer here, provided some of those aircraft types were in your fleet, that would surely be an advantage. As rather than just having flown the aircraft, it means the applicant has also done an engineering paper, and done proper conversion training on the aircraft, so they should have a pretty reasonable grasp of the idiosyncrasies of the type. Yes, I know light singles arent that complex, but to a 220hr pilot its all new and exciting.
When I came to this country, I didnt even hold an Australian licence, I merely had an approval from CASA to operate Australian registered aircraft. And its very easy to say "learn the rules of the country you are trying to obtain a job in" but when applying to get a CASA licence through the TTMRA conversion, there was no mention that Australia is ICAO, but only kind of, cos whe have our own bastardized version. There is no requirement to sit a law exam, but I think the problem here is in the legislation, maybe it should be made mandatory?
If a pilot is writing that they hold a CASA CPL with endorsements on C152, C172, etc etc, by all means, tell them to sort that **** out tho!! All I will say is, I was very surprised when I got here to find how different the rules and regs are here!!!
For the record, several years and a few thousand hours later, I still have on my resume that I hold a NZCPL with ratings on about 23 different aircraft types, then under that I write that I hold a CASA CPL with my endorsements written accordingly (ie retrac, csu, tailwheel etc) and I have never been turned down for a job yet.
And Kiwis chasing Aussie jobs (which seems to be all of you at some stage of your careers...why don't we just save the hassle and make it the eighth state?
) don't list your hours in two decimal places, we only use one and we have an endorsement that covers (most) single engine pistons below 5700kg.
Do not list endorsements on C150, C152, C172, C172RG, C182, C182RG, C206, C210, PA38, PA28, PA28R, PA32, PA32R etc etc etc as it shows complete ignorance of the licensing system in the country you want to work in.
) don't list your hours in two decimal places, we only use one and we have an endorsement that covers (most) single engine pistons below 5700kg.Do not list endorsements on C150, C152, C172, C172RG, C182, C182RG, C206, C210, PA38, PA28, PA28R, PA32, PA32R etc etc etc as it shows complete ignorance of the licensing system in the country you want to work in.
However, as someone who a few years back came to this country for work, I can see both sides to your argument.
If someone states on their resume that they hold a NZCAA Commercial licence with ratings (they're called ratings over there) on x, y, z aircraft, then I dont see how that is a problem? In fact for an employer here, provided some of those aircraft types were in your fleet, that would surely be an advantage. As rather than just having flown the aircraft, it means the applicant has also done an engineering paper, and done proper conversion training on the aircraft, so they should have a pretty reasonable grasp of the idiosyncrasies of the type. Yes, I know light singles arent that complex, but to a 220hr pilot its all new and exciting.
When I came to this country, I didnt even hold an Australian licence, I merely had an approval from CASA to operate Australian registered aircraft. And its very easy to say "learn the rules of the country you are trying to obtain a job in" but when applying to get a CASA licence through the TTMRA conversion, there was no mention that Australia is ICAO, but only kind of, cos whe have our own bastardized version. There is no requirement to sit a law exam, but I think the problem here is in the legislation, maybe it should be made mandatory?
If a pilot is writing that they hold a CASA CPL with endorsements on C152, C172, etc etc, by all means, tell them to sort that **** out tho!! All I will say is, I was very surprised when I got here to find how different the rules and regs are here!!!
For the record, several years and a few thousand hours later, I still have on my resume that I hold a NZCPL with ratings on about 23 different aircraft types, then under that I write that I hold a CASA CPL with my endorsements written accordingly (ie retrac, csu, tailwheel etc) and I have never been turned down for a job yet.
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I do recall a while back to the poor chap that posted on here about how he travelled all over the country ending up in Darwin looking for a job and didn't find one, contrary to everyone on here saying "go north." I do wonder what happened to him after all that went by.
Interesting perspective in your 9th Jul 2012 01:27 post, Trojan. From my perspective the content of your post is entirely consistent with what I was trying (perhaps unsuccessfully) to say.
100s of unsolicited résumés for non-existent vacancies, or even 100s of applications for a single vacancy? I’d call that a market that’s very competitive for those wanting a job as a pilot.
Compare, for example, what happens if a tradie puts his or her hand up to work in the mines. The mining companies will compete to win over the tradie. (That won’t last, but it’s the reality for the time being.)
Bad people getting good jobs and progressing? That’s what I said – cruel world and all that.
That’s why the industry, collectively, bleeds billions, annually. In effect, lots of people are spending more money than they make, in order to live a dream … for a while.
The unique ‘culture’ arises from the fact that the participants earnestly and uniquely believe that humans will, eventually, cease behaving like humans.
PS: I was genuinely sad when the 'Trojan' call sign was passed from C-130 to C-17. I suppose we're all getting older...
100s of unsolicited résumés for non-existent vacancies, or even 100s of applications for a single vacancy? I’d call that a market that’s very competitive for those wanting a job as a pilot.
Compare, for example, what happens if a tradie puts his or her hand up to work in the mines. The mining companies will compete to win over the tradie. (That won’t last, but it’s the reality for the time being.)
Bad people getting good jobs and progressing? That’s what I said – cruel world and all that.
[A]n industry whose culture seems to run counter to the rest of the business world.
The unique ‘culture’ arises from the fact that the participants earnestly and uniquely believe that humans will, eventually, cease behaving like humans.
PS: I was genuinely sad when the 'Trojan' call sign was passed from C-130 to C-17. I suppose we're all getting older...
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Yes I do understand CP's are busy, but out of professional courtesy, please send an email back stating whether you have progressed to the next stage or have been unsuccessful in this instance.
I suggest if you aren't getting any replies, make a phone call or send another email through. Let them know its been a fortnight or so, you understand they are busy, but you'd really appreciate hearing about the best way to gain employment at XXX. It's worked for me every time so far, and it's made job hunting just that little bit more pleasant.
All good points Creampuff, spot on about how the industry operates.
Indeed! It's also a funny feeling when the aircraft types to which you were posted start appearing in museums!
PS: I was genuinely sad when the 'Trojan' call sign was passed from C-130 to C-17. I suppose we're all getting older...
Last edited by Trojan1981; 9th Jul 2012 at 21:22.
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I have to say that the general level of incompetence I encounter daily is unbelievable. Considering the stringent requirements in job add (where you have to have basically doing the job for five years) it seems that employers are hiring the most compliant recruits possible, not necessarily the best for the job.
Also, If your resume is not in the first 20 to arrive, you'll be placed in the circular file for almost any position nowadays.
This crash is a real education for Gen Y. Never having experienced a recession before is challenging, to say the least.
Also, If your resume is not in the first 20 to arrive, you'll be placed in the circular file for almost any position nowadays.
This crash is a real education for Gen Y. Never having experienced a recession before is challenging, to say the least.
Last edited by gileraguy; 10th Jul 2012 at 00:03.