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Barry Hempel Inquest

Old 19th Mar 2013, 21:06
  #481 (permalink)  
 
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Shambollic – or Shambollics ?.

Rumours in the wind:

1) Much derision from the court, but the witness stuck with that despite the ambulance reports to the contrary.

2) The witness mentioned other medical files kept within CASA, on pilots. This grabbed everyone's attention. These files while never present previously, are apparently in the Coroners office, but could not be used until they were mentioned in the proceedings. They will be part of Friday's hearing.

3) Counsel asked the witness that given everything said, would a recommendation to cancel Hempel 's licence be issued.. the witness said NO, it would have still been issued under certain circumstances. Counsel sat down flabbergasted as the witness tried to explain this statement. The coroner told the witness basically to shut up. One Counsel declined to question his witness.

Can't wait for the transcript, that will greatly assist in laying to rest the rumours. Apparently Counsel Assisting deserves a Choccy frog and a gold star for an excellent day's work.

Oh, while I'm at it, thanks P3 for the 161/07 instrument. Raises more questions than answers of course. The 'War-birds' angle is fascinating. It is difficult to join all the dots from the QPS report but it seems we have War-bird 'phantom' witnesses x two (I can't confirm that from the script I have; but there is at least one); offers of ex Navy divers to raise the Yak; and Instruments (161/07) being issued at what seems to be an 'awkward' time. All curiously intriguing.

Last edited by Kharon; 19th Mar 2013 at 21:09.
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Old 19th Mar 2013, 21:10
  #482 (permalink)  
 
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And what is more, there is still not conclusive proof that JQ was the pilot in that video.

And CASA stil got away with it. Has anyone actually tested that one to the limit? I doubt it.

My guess is there was far more video from the original cut that the criminal passenger had, but CASA would never have let that be made available just in case it shot them in the ar$e. Rather the edited and dubbed version that went to youtube was the sole piece of evidence.

Anyone care to shoot holes in my suspicious guess.
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Old 19th Mar 2013, 23:09
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its the boots, the video boots were not the type worn by JC never mind the broken chain of evidence and digital manipulation of the video file.

Would never have seen the light of day in a Court, only admissable in the AAT.
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Old 20th Mar 2013, 00:45
  #484 (permalink)  
 
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Kharon:

3) Counsel asked the witness that given everything said, would a recommendation to cancel Hempel 's licence be issued.. the witness said NO, it would have still been issued under certain circumstances. Counsel sat down flabbergasted as the witness tried to explain this statement. The coroner told the witness basically to shut up. One Counsel declined to question his witness.
A perusal of AAT rulings suggests that medical certificates are rather easy to lose, I would have thought, yet not in Bazzas case for some reason?
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Old 20th Mar 2013, 11:45
  #485 (permalink)  
 
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UITA, I guess Hedley won't be getting a Xmas card from The Skull this year!
Hedley just joined 'The Ills Of Society' club!
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Old 20th Mar 2013, 21:36
  #486 (permalink)  
 
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Bizarre medical rituals.

Sunny # 494 –"A perusal of AAT rulings suggests that medical certificates are rather easy to lose, I would have thought, yet not in Bazzas case for some reason?"
Rather than risk getting yet another thread closed down, I will avoid specific cases and events; there are a significant number on record which answer your questions, some quite bizarre. There's the well documented 'diabetic' case which is well worth a read; then a similar case to Hempel 's where a PPL (I believe) pranged a motor cycle and did himself grievous bodily and head harm, story goes it took eight years and some significant effort to regain a licence; then one of the strangest tales I ever heard was of selective 'psychic' DAMP tests where the results may be delayed until the 'auguries' are good (not my tale to tell, but I wish).

It is beyond my humble powers to determine what happened (or didn't happen) in the BH case, but I know I would not like to be the Coroner, not for a pension. I wonder if Bempel will end up at the Senate as part of a wider inquiry? there certainly seems to be enough reasonable doubt to justify it.

Last edited by Kharon; 20th Mar 2013 at 22:00. Reason: Just checking - twitch, twitch.....
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Old 21st Mar 2013, 12:27
  #487 (permalink)  
 
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Reference for the Coroner

A perusal of AAT rulings suggests that medical certificates are rather easy to lose, I would have thought, yet not in Bazzas case for some reason?
Good point that you make Sunny and considering there is a few more docs fronting up for tomorrow's hearing perhaps the Coroner would be interested in reading a few of those AAT cases with a similar theme?
Pilot loss of licence or conditions on licence due to aviation seizure/diabetes/head injury medical conditions contested in the AAT 2006-2012:

2006: [2006] AATA 1123

2007: [2007] AATA 1952

2008: [2008] AATA 479

2009: [2009] AATA 171 [2009] AATA 674

2010: [2010] AATA 733 [2010] AATA 693 [2010] AATA 481 ,
2010: [2010] AATA 604

2011: [2011] AATA 739

2012: [2012] AATA 92
At least it gives an idea how these medical conditions are normally handled by the FF medicos and poses the question why BH (according to Shamster) was so much different??
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Old 21st Mar 2013, 22:03
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Twits

Anyone been keeping an eye on the CASA twitters and tweeters; they had a heap to say about Barrier, anything on Bempel??

Ah, the social media approach to aviation governance. I wonder what all this twitting and tweeting costs the taxpayer??, or more to the point, what in all the hells is the good of it? - I wonder, if we moved the Barrier discussion to some half arsed tweety type site, how could that get locked, silenced or censored ???

twit·ted, twit·ting, twits
To taunt, ridicule, or tease, especially for embarrassing mistakes or faults. See Synonyms at ridicule.
n.
1. The act or an instance of twitting.
2. A reproach, gibe, or taunt.
3. Slang A foolishly annoying person.

"What did you do today?" - "Oh, I twitted my t wheat tits off M'lud.



Last edited by Kharon; 21st Mar 2013 at 22:09. Reason: Gods spare me. read T wheat for Pprune
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Old 21st Mar 2013, 23:49
  #489 (permalink)  
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CASA twitters and tweeters
So can we expect tweets on Fridays instead of faxes?
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Old 22nd Mar 2013, 03:22
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Twheaty all y' like. I'm a PPRuNe man through and through; although I do indulge the odd SMS text message, like the one just now from the Coroners court : need to paraphrase it - been some not so liddel attitude adjustment from a medical boffin, some great work from the Flemish old master artist and heaps of people looking for friendly rock to hide under till the noise dies down. Spins and hardly normal tizwozzes when the Coroner began asking awkward questions and for info on 'difficult' meeting and records from them, indicating he is fully prepared to extend if required. All very entertaining – update after lunch.

Stop press – Av med file dates relate to critical junctions – whatever that may mean. Beans on toast I think, and a nice choccy biscuit. Friday Twheats Heh heh heh! nice one 601 Endless possibilities. Lunch Minnie.
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Old 22nd Mar 2013, 09:35
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Hempel inquest update

Will get a summary of today's proceedings posted in due course, here's a snippet from that Gold Coast journo again...

Pilot's doctor ignored advice, court told Crime and Court News | goldcoast.com.au | Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
Pilot's doctor ignored advice, court told

Matthew Killoran | 01:37pm March 22, 2013


A CIVIL Aviation Safety Authority doctor assessing the pilot's licence of Barry Hempel, who was later involved in a fatal crash, disregarded a colleague's request for more medical tests to be done, a coronial inquest heard this morning.

Mr Hempel flew a Yak52 warbird that crashed near South Stradbroke Island in August 2008, killing him and passenger Ian Ross Lovell.

The inquest has been told Mr Hempel was given a pilot's licence despite having a history of seizures.

It heard when CASA approved Mr Hempel's licence in 2005 it was in possession of an ambulance report from 2002 which stated he had suffered a seizure and had at least two before that.

Ken Fleming QC said CASA records showed one doctor had requested Mr Hempel be evaluated by a neuro-psychologist, but Dr Rob Liddell disregarded the recommendation.

"You are completely ignoring the advise of the doctor above saying we need another neuro-psychologist's report," he said.

Dr Liddell denied that he ignored the recommendation.

"I would have considered it, I just didn't agree with it," he said.

Last edited by Sarcs; 22nd Mar 2013 at 22:22.
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Old 22nd Mar 2013, 13:20
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Job well done Samantha.

Congratulations, Samantha Hare is this weeks recipient of 'The Chocolate Frog Award'
She did a superb job. I would, if I may, like to list just a couple of qualities she exhibited which just happen to be the same qualities CASA lack and do not exhibit, and by the way who once again receive this weeks not so coveted 'Chocolate Starfish Award'.

Congrats Samantha for emanating:
1. Balls (Tough and strong woman willing to tell it straight)
2. Dignity
3. Honesty
4. Truthfulness
5. Reasonableness
6. Conscience
7. Compassion
8. Accuracy
9. Clarity
10. Transparency
11. Bravery
12. Justice

FF, hang your heads in shame. Each and every one of you who had a hand in the chain of events that contributed to the death of Mr Lovell should hang their heads in shame. You have blood on your hands. You may sleep well but one day you will have to meet the Ferryman, do not forget that.

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 22nd Mar 2013 at 13:22. Reason: Twittering, twattering and tweezing
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Old 22nd Mar 2013, 22:25
  #493 (permalink)  
 
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Had Hempel been a Bus driver.

If this appears disjointed, I apologise. I am working from nine pages of notes, not transcript. There are important issues for discussion and I wanted to get the ball rolling, the industry may have to extract a digit and provide this unfortunate Coroner with submissions as requested, whether they are read or not is a different matter.

I have just finished reading the Samantha Hare recommendations to the Coroner, made yesterday. The statement, in my opinion helps neither the current issues, the future of aviation nor her own civil action against the CASA. We have a nearly hysterical appeal for total control of everything from a flu shot to vasectomy to be reported to CASA from your doctor of choice (or convenience) recorded as part of an already very intrusive medical system. Should this be allowed I believe every person in charge of a vehicle of any description needs to protest, loud and long against it. Why should this entire industry suffer and be further impeded for the blatant crimes of one man??.

Had Hempel been a bus driver, or a ferry captain, passenger liner helmsman, train driver or even a truck driver, little of the hysteria surrounding 'medical condition' would have eventuated. Why does it have to be so very different for aircraft pilots?.....There exists a 'robust' extensive medical system which already has great powers, some would argue too many. The State has strong systems used to ensure that persons operating 'public service' vehicles are tested and qualified as 'fit for duty' as may be reasonably foreseen; insurance companies rely on those systems, the courts rely on those systems; and, the system is 'self protecting'. A call for further intrusion should be treated as an understandably, emotional response from a person who has been subjected to a long, frustrating wait for closure.

I am not sure what effect the Samantha Hare recommendation to the Coroner had; one can only hope that CASA will persist with a case against further over regulating, now that I could willingly support. In fact many of the CASA arguments in this case had merit.

There are several areas of serious interest from yesterday's final session which are worth considering:

Opinion : It has become apparent that no matter what legislation was in place, the intention to deliberately commit an offence cannot ever be effectively countered. There is no doubt that whatever method used by CASA in an attempt to control Hempel (and there were several) was doomed to failure – many had tried and all failed to restrain Hempel. Neither Commonwealth, State, civil or aeronautical law made any impression. There was prima facia evidence presented that even the notoriously difficult to prove "Not a fit and Proper person" case could have been successfully prosecuted. This never happened to Hempel. There are too many instances where the NFPP clause has been administratively made to stick. Not for Hempel though. It is reasonable to wonder why??

Opinion: The Coroners questions directed at the notes and minutes for "Difficult Case Meetings" (DCM) almost penetrated, were CASA medical aware of the Hempel medical condition – Yes, categorically, they were. The rest of it is simply an attempt to muddy the waters, ambulance officer reports, other medical opinion and evidence were denigrated. CASA medical have been known to suspend a medical against an unsubstantiated complaint. So, why was Hempel medical not suspended against the large amount of 'hard' evidence they had? The Coroner made a statement to the effect that CASA should have had Hempel under "strict care". Yet here we are in a Coroners court with CASA forced to defend their unique (for one man) lack of positive action. The reasonable question again is why?

A new cigar and a fresh coffee have brought me, temporarily to the end of this: the more I read of the legal ducking and weaving simply reinforces the facts – Several CASA operatives legitimately, legally, medically and operationally tried to prevent this one man from harming himself and other people. In my opinion there are only two questions; who was protecting him and why? Perhaps a detailed study of the transcript will change my mind, I doubt it, I really do: but I will try – later.

Last edited by Kharon; 22nd Mar 2013 at 23:38. Reason: Deadly serious mode- medical not licence old fool.
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Old 23rd Mar 2013, 01:58
  #494 (permalink)  
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It has become apparent that no matter what legislation was in place, the intention to deliberately commit an offence cannot ever be effectively countered. There is no doubt that whatever method used by CASA in an attempt to control Hempel (and there were several) was doomed to failure – many had tried and all failed to restrain Hempel.
Several CASA operatives legitimately, legally, medically and operationally tried to prevent this one man from harming himself and other people.
Totally agree.

You cannot legislate against someone who has no respect for any legislation.
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Old 24th Mar 2013, 19:48
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Like it or not.

Well, I've managed to work through the notes and observations from the last two days of the Hempel hearing. You have to give credit where it is due. Mr. Harvey is a master craftsman: successfully managing to get the Coroner to focus on the medical men and divert attention to the medical systems failure to communicate, very neatly distracted the courts attention away from the real issues. It was a very clever play. I don't like it, but I can acknowledge the guile, nerve and skill.

For instance (all paraphrased) – buried in amongst the white noise was this little gem; ex CASA medico Dr. Liddle on the stand was asked should Hempel have had a medical? – Yep says the good Doc, fully entitled to a class 2 no restrictions. It seems Hempel's own Dr. Spall had only ever requested a restricted class 2 for Hempel. CASA wanted and offered to provide a restricted class one medical.

Just have a think about that for a moment – then you have to acknowledge Harvey earns his keep. The case in a nutshell, swept away in a torrent of 'he said – she said' white noise from doctors unable to remember the fine details of events eight to 10 years go.


Last edited by Kharon; 24th Mar 2013 at 19:50.
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Old 25th Mar 2013, 01:35
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Kharon,

I spent several hours last night also examinng the submissions in detail, reading the wording, intent and facts as they were positioned under the microscope.
I must agree, Mr Harvey earned his keep. I can see why FF continue to retain his robust services as he has truly mastered his craft, which is nothing new to us.
In fact to some degree when you research some of his earlier works over the years you can really see that he is a formidable player who clearly has the ability to outplay many dopey Coroners and Beaks that he has stood before!
I am sure the LSG has a giant bag of chocolate frogs awaiting him, and maybe even a couple of Hi 5's??
I do feel for Samantha Hare as I don't believe she will see the outcome she was looking for and once again another victims loved one joins the group on the sidelines who receive no logical or fair recourse.

Not that I agree with this saying, but a 'CASA person' once commented; 'Its all a game, a very seriou game, but all a game'.

"ut dilectos tuos pacem"

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Old 25th Mar 2013, 02:55
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MOIE# 501 "In fact to some degree when you research some of his earlier works over the years you can really see that he is a formidable player who clearly has the ability to outplay many dopey Coroners and Beaks that he has stood before!"
Don't know they are so much as 'dopey', but certainly aeronautically uneducated. But. No one took the trouble to point out the exacting, intrusive and, some would argue un required aspects of the CASA medical ethos. Bus 60 folks – Train – 2/300 folks – Sydney Manly ferry – Fairstar liners – etc. etc. would their union tolerate the use of an ancient RAF method for weeding out pilots, transmogrified into an administrative empire?. I mean, why just pilots?

So here we have a 'robust' coroner and a very good council assisting. No idea about CASA medicals or how hard it is to keep one – none. Then in strolls Harvey, spots the fire and carefully wafts the flames. Never a word about embuggering (Cheers Sunny) their own investigation, nobbling the ATSB and actively refusing to help the QPS from doing their thing. (Great job fellahs). Never a word about the War-birds over sight requirement, not even a dicky bird. (Agree arguable). Never a word about how very easily CASA can prevent someone working in industry; not a peep about how AOC 's vanish like smoke on the breeze, or NFPP badges are dished out like Jaffas, on administrative whimsy.

Judges, Coroners and the like have absolutely NFI: they know the law, how to apply the law, their own roles and probably, for the most part do this well (not able to offer opinion). Harvey is a heavy weight veteran wolf, battle toughened, well supported; what chance the silent lambs Clarisse?

Why, man, they did make love to this employment,
They are not near my conscience. Their defeat
Does by their own insinuation grow.
'Tis dangerous when the baser nature comes
Between the pass and fell incensèd points
Of mighty opposites.

Last edited by Kharon; 25th Mar 2013 at 03:07. Reason: Gotta lurv RDO's.
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Old 25th Mar 2013, 05:56
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So much for Senator Fawcett's question to DOIT on 'closing the loop':
Senate Estimates RRAT Committee 23/05/2012 pg 92-93 :
Senator FAWCETT: Who would those other stakeholders be?

Mr Dolan: Our experience has been that counsel assisting, in trying to do a comprehensive job in support of a coroner, sought other lines of information and brought it to bear in the process. Other parties, all of whom have their own interests in a coronial process, often find it necessary to test a range of alternative hypotheses. Sometimes the weight comes down to a different place than we placed it. That is just part of the relationship. If there is a coronial finding that is inconsistent with what we found or more information comes to light in the course of an inquest that is relevant to our investigation, we will reopen the investigation and make sure that is properly weighed up in our processes.

Senator FAWCETT: I notice CASA is often another player in the coronial inquests and often you will highlight something, the coroner will accept it and basically tick off in his report on the basis that a new CASR or something is going to be implemented. Do you follow those up? I have looked through a few crash investigations, and I will just pick one: the Bell 407 that crashed in October '03. CASR part 133 was supposed to be reworked around night VFR requirements for EMS situations. I notice that still is not available now, nearly 10 years after the event. Does it cause you any concern that recommendations that were accepted by the coroner, and put out as a way of preventing a future accident, still have not actually eventuated? How do you track those? How do we, as a society, make sure we prevent the accidents occurring again?

Mr Dolan: We monitor various coronial reports and findings that are relevant to our business. We do not have any role in ensuring that coronial findings or recommendations are carried out by whichever the relevant party may be. I think that would be stepping beyond our brief.

Senator FAWCETT: Who should have that role then?

Mr Dolan: I would see that as a role for the coronial services of the various states. But to add to that, because we are aware of the sorts of findings—as you say, it is not that common that there is something that is significantly different or unexpected for us, but when there is—we will have regard to that obviously in our future investigation activities and recognise there may already be a finding out there that is relevant to one of our future investigations.

Senator FAWCETT: Would it be appropriate to have—a sunset clause is not quite the right phrase—a due date that if an action is recommended and accepted by a regulatory body, in this case CASA, the coroner should actually be putting a date on that and CASA must implement by a certain date or report back, whether it is to the minister or to the court or to the coroner, why that action has not actually occurred?

Mr Dolan: I think I will limit myself to comment that that is the way we try to do it. We have a requirement that in 90 days, if we have made a recommendation, there is a response to it. We will track a recommendation until we are satisfied it is complete or until we have concluded that there is no likelihood that the action is going to be taken.

Senator FAWCETT: Mr Mrdak, as secretary of the relevant department, how would you propose to engage with the coroners to make sure that we, as a nation, close this loophole to make our air environment safer?
Mr Mrdak: I think Mr Dolan has indicated the relationship with coroners is on a much better footing than it has been ever before. I think the work of the ATSB has led that. I think it then becomes a matter of addressing the relationship between the safety regulators and security regulators, as necessary, with the coroners. It is probably one I would take on notice and give a bit of thought to, if you do not mind.
Senator FAWCETT: You do not accept that your department and you, as secretary, have a duty of care and an oversight to make sure that two agencies who work for you do actually complement their activities for the outcome that benefits the aviation community?
Mr Mrdak: We certainly do ensure that agencies are working together. That is certainly occurring. You have asked me the more detailed question about coroners and relationships with the agencies. I will have a bit of a think about that, if that is okay.
Senator FAWCETT: Thank you.
While FF LSD as a DIP to an aviation accident fatality within the coronial process are allowed to continually obfuscate and sabotage that process, may I suggest there will never be a 'closing of the loop' and all good coroner recommendations will continue to be ignored!

I also see a lot of irony in Mr Dolan's in bold statement (2nd from the top) in light of the Hempel inquest, especially considering the ATSB wasn't even a DIP to the inquest and had very little involvement in the QPS FCU's investigation or report???

Last edited by Sarcs; 25th Mar 2013 at 06:27.
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Old 25th Mar 2013, 06:10
  #499 (permalink)  
 
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Pity Laurie Gruzman QC is not still around.
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Old 25th Mar 2013, 07:31
  #500 (permalink)  

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Yes indeed. Laurie would have sorted them all out!!
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