Seniority - is it time to get rid of it?
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: WA
Age: 71
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
(Quote)Must have plenty of time on your hands . Why bother getting involved with aviation sites ? Aren't there mining industry forums? I smell a rat. (unquote)
No rat here to be smelt, simsalabim, I enjoy browsing this forum. I don't live and breathe mining, their forums hold little attraction. As I mentioned obliquely, in a reference to GA, I am a PPL holder. Haven't flown for a few years, economics pushed me out of private hire. In fact, last logbook entry may be ICUS P-51D, treated myself in the late Bill Wylies' dual seat Mustang before it was sold
If the closest private hire wasn't 160km's away, I'd be back doing it now. Just love flying, and am always intrigued by the industry. I know my place, I think, in a professional pilots form, and that is largely as a spectator. Although I very occasionally post the SLF viewpoint, if I think it is relevant. Did post one question in The Balcony, re QF Q400 ops in WA, nobody answered.
If you look at my age shown on the message , I'm not exactly a young bloke resentful of those who have "earned" their seniority.. but I am very respectful of genuine experience. A bit of a quandary here, really--how do you tell the the experienced and vastly capable from the timeservers in a seniority based sytem?
No rat here to be smelt, simsalabim, I enjoy browsing this forum. I don't live and breathe mining, their forums hold little attraction. As I mentioned obliquely, in a reference to GA, I am a PPL holder. Haven't flown for a few years, economics pushed me out of private hire. In fact, last logbook entry may be ICUS P-51D, treated myself in the late Bill Wylies' dual seat Mustang before it was sold
If the closest private hire wasn't 160km's away, I'd be back doing it now. Just love flying, and am always intrigued by the industry. I know my place, I think, in a professional pilots form, and that is largely as a spectator. Although I very occasionally post the SLF viewpoint, if I think it is relevant. Did post one question in The Balcony, re QF Q400 ops in WA, nobody answered. If you look at my age shown on the message , I'm not exactly a young bloke resentful of those who have "earned" their seniority.. but I am very respectful of genuine experience. A bit of a quandary here, really--how do you tell the the experienced and vastly capable from the timeservers in a seniority based sytem?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hazard a Guess
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seniority Rostering Fatigue
Many arduous patterns are done by the most junior and overtime this can lead to fatigue.If you are fatigued you don't go to work .Simple.If you are aware you are fatigued and cause an incident you will be held responsible.
Arduous patterns need to be changed.They will only be changed if enough individuals highlight the problem.
Seniority can be a bitch but its a lot better than the alternatives.
Arduous patterns need to be changed.They will only be changed if enough individuals highlight the problem.
Seniority can be a bitch but its a lot better than the alternatives.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: au
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Must have plenty of time on your hands . Why bother getting involved with aviation sites ? Aren't there mining industry forums? I smell a rat.
I'd like to think I'm bloody good at what I do, and the system where time spent counts more then ability & attitude is what made me discount a career in aviation.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Darwin
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts on this thread. As I said earlier I am going part time for 6 months, that will alleviate my personal issues with this matter somewhat, but the whole situation stinks. I like the "f*@k you" idea, when seniors take the better break. Can't wait to try that one out 
. I do support the union movement, but on this matter our union is failing a lot of us. The fatigue management system being used for cabin crew is a bit of a joke. If you use it more than 3 times you have to go and see a work nominated DAME. A collegue was made to see a work nominated DAME with dire consequences for the treatment of a workplace injury. The DAME stated there was no injury, and in fact my collegue had a very significant injury requiring many months off work. If you use more than one day "fatigue leave" you have to see the DAME (as in 2 days in a row). The form you fill in regarding fatigue also wants to know if you suffer from anxiety or depression, which some crew may not want to disclose to their employer, stopping many crew from using the fatigue leave. Thanks again everyone for their comments here.
. I do support the union movement, but on this matter our union is failing a lot of us. The fatigue management system being used for cabin crew is a bit of a joke. If you use it more than 3 times you have to go and see a work nominated DAME. A collegue was made to see a work nominated DAME with dire consequences for the treatment of a workplace injury. The DAME stated there was no injury, and in fact my collegue had a very significant injury requiring many months off work. If you use more than one day "fatigue leave" you have to see the DAME (as in 2 days in a row). The form you fill in regarding fatigue also wants to know if you suffer from anxiety or depression, which some crew may not want to disclose to their employer, stopping many crew from using the fatigue leave. Thanks again everyone for their comments here.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Darwin
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Goodonyamate may be right. Seniors always hogging their preferred break and favourite work positions does not seem to be written in the Eba! I started a thread about this on the official cabin crew website. Crew have admitted to being too scared to speak up about how they feel about this issue. Management appear ambivilant , but it's one of the most viewed threads on the forum . I keep expecting it to be shut down but it's up to over 800 views. I am a social revolutionary 
. Let's hope the power doesn't ruin me !
. Let's hope the power doesn't ruin me !
I am a social revolutionary
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Holland
Age: 60
Posts: 560
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Folly
I agree Bloggsy.
Also try bank managers, PILOTS, Police....Believe it or not there are some Maccas staff that are now senior managers and they took 20+ years to get there and started out as a 15 yr old flipping burgers!!
LHLisa, your complaint is folly. Moaning about other people's 'break times' and 'where they get to serve onboard the plane' is bollocks. If that is the worst life can offer you then the future for you isn't bright. Might be time to spend some time scouring the barron plains of Africa in search of drinking water, or ploughing some rice paddies in Vietnam where kids still get limbs blown off on a monthly basis from a f#cking war 40 years ago! Or what about working as an underpaid nurse in a ****ty Rusian hospital where babies and infants with mental retardation are chained, literally, to cots??
Bollocks bollocks bollocks
Also try bank managers, PILOTS, Police....Believe it or not there are some Maccas staff that are now senior managers and they took 20+ years to get there and started out as a 15 yr old flipping burgers!!
LHLisa, your complaint is folly. Moaning about other people's 'break times' and 'where they get to serve onboard the plane' is bollocks. If that is the worst life can offer you then the future for you isn't bright. Might be time to spend some time scouring the barron plains of Africa in search of drinking water, or ploughing some rice paddies in Vietnam where kids still get limbs blown off on a monthly basis from a f#cking war 40 years ago! Or what about working as an underpaid nurse in a ****ty Rusian hospital where babies and infants with mental retardation are chained, literally, to cots??
Bollocks bollocks bollocks
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 58
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oleo and Bloggs,
All of the occupations that you cite have portability within their profession.Most Pilots and some cabin crew do not. The analogy of Teachers, Police, Doctors is a false one.
An experienced, well qualified pilot must start their career again as the most junior pilot if they change companies. This is a fine arrangment for those who have been fortunate enough to gain a well paid position in a stable company early in their careers, such as at Qantas where Captains are still sitting pretty. Not so great if you get retrenched along the way a couple of times. Or you are a 'junior' Pilot at QF, with maybe 15 years experience as a FO.
I have already shown in previous posts how Seniority degrades the Terms and Conditions of the industry as a whole. For your information, I had a position as a FO on a jet some years ago and took a Direct Enrty Command at another company (that didn't have Seniority or the experience base to promote internally) and got myself a $50,000 pay increase - an example of how promotion on merit can increase renumeration.
Perhaps you should speak to the Strategic/Air Australia pilots who must now go overseas if they want to retain their command positions. The result is that the pool of experience in the Australian airline industry is degraded.
I have been in this industry for 30+ years now. I have seen how companies with Seniority can manipulate the system to promote sons/daughters/mates. Psalms ancient and modern....
The argument that Seniority some how prevents nepotism or brown-nosing is just bleatings from the totally naive 
All of the occupations that you cite have portability within their profession.Most Pilots and some cabin crew do not. The analogy of Teachers, Police, Doctors is a false one.
An experienced, well qualified pilot must start their career again as the most junior pilot if they change companies. This is a fine arrangment for those who have been fortunate enough to gain a well paid position in a stable company early in their careers, such as at Qantas where Captains are still sitting pretty. Not so great if you get retrenched along the way a couple of times. Or you are a 'junior' Pilot at QF, with maybe 15 years experience as a FO.
I have already shown in previous posts how Seniority degrades the Terms and Conditions of the industry as a whole. For your information, I had a position as a FO on a jet some years ago and took a Direct Enrty Command at another company (that didn't have Seniority or the experience base to promote internally) and got myself a $50,000 pay increase - an example of how promotion on merit can increase renumeration.
Perhaps you should speak to the Strategic/Air Australia pilots who must now go overseas if they want to retain their command positions. The result is that the pool of experience in the Australian airline industry is degraded.
I have been in this industry for 30+ years now. I have seen how companies with Seniority can manipulate the system to promote sons/daughters/mates. Psalms ancient and modern....
The argument that Seniority some how prevents nepotism or brown-nosing is just bleatings from the totally naive
Last edited by Anthill; 6th Apr 2012 at 02:09.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: The Zoo
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bit of a misnomer with teachers, police and doctors.
Yes a lot of junior teachers go remote to get the first job and spend a few years there getting experience. But I know more than a few that did relief teaching for one year in a capital city to prove themselves and the following year walked straight in to a full time position based on their performance.
Doctors do have different degrees of training starting off with their intern year, moving on to a RMO/SRMO position, registrar and once they've completed their exit exam become a fellow or consultant. However these qualifications are entirely portable and exam based (you cant get your consultancy until you've completed an exit exam, which at the end of the day is their equivalent of an ATPL). Trying to get in to one of the training programs can take time - much like it takes time to get in to an Airline. But once you're in and have the qualification, you can move between hospitals or private work.
Police, you'll find a number of states that recognise previous experience from interstate and even allow you to transfer annual leave, long service leave, etc.
Seniority protects risk averse people which isn't a negative trait in a pilot, but can have a negative impact on the industry. How many people fed up with conditions at particular airlines would go back to a flying school for a year or two to train the next generation if they knew they could walk back in to an airline job either with the previous company or a new company. I know a lot of people who'd prefer some stability in their life that somewhere like a flying school provides until the kids are a little older, but don't want to make the move because they lose seniority/date of joining and never get that upgrade to command. So the flying schools get stuck with G3's teaching G3's teaching G3's. How many med students do you see who are only taught by interns? There is a place for RMO's learning from Registrars, but there are Consultants available... how many _current_ airline pilots do you see available to students doing CPL training?
Yes a lot of junior teachers go remote to get the first job and spend a few years there getting experience. But I know more than a few that did relief teaching for one year in a capital city to prove themselves and the following year walked straight in to a full time position based on their performance.
Doctors do have different degrees of training starting off with their intern year, moving on to a RMO/SRMO position, registrar and once they've completed their exit exam become a fellow or consultant. However these qualifications are entirely portable and exam based (you cant get your consultancy until you've completed an exit exam, which at the end of the day is their equivalent of an ATPL). Trying to get in to one of the training programs can take time - much like it takes time to get in to an Airline. But once you're in and have the qualification, you can move between hospitals or private work.
Police, you'll find a number of states that recognise previous experience from interstate and even allow you to transfer annual leave, long service leave, etc.
Seniority protects risk averse people which isn't a negative trait in a pilot, but can have a negative impact on the industry. How many people fed up with conditions at particular airlines would go back to a flying school for a year or two to train the next generation if they knew they could walk back in to an airline job either with the previous company or a new company. I know a lot of people who'd prefer some stability in their life that somewhere like a flying school provides until the kids are a little older, but don't want to make the move because they lose seniority/date of joining and never get that upgrade to command. So the flying schools get stuck with G3's teaching G3's teaching G3's. How many med students do you see who are only taught by interns? There is a place for RMO's learning from Registrars, but there are Consultants available... how many _current_ airline pilots do you see available to students doing CPL training?
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South of O
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE]Perhaps you should speak to the Strategic/Air Australia pilots who must now go overseas if they want to retain their command positions/QUOTE]
So you suggest these guys should just walk into a command position with a company that may never have worked for, or like yourself have walked from to greener pastures, and take slots from those who have bided their time in the right seat.
Sounds like you are advocating a form of an Industry wide seniority system whilst disparaging a company one.
[QUOTE]The argument that Seniority some how prevents nepotism or brown-nosing is just bleatings from the totally naive/QUOTE]
No, not naive, just understand how nepotism or brown nosing will also be apparent (and more unregulated) in a system that does not have seniority.
Obviously an argument for direct entry command may exist when a company introduces new types, suffers a lack of experience due to expansion, or can't get applicants (basings etc), otherwise, to my way of thinking, it is just guys pinching jobs.
Anyway that's my view, ...which is from the left seat.
So you suggest these guys should just walk into a command position with a company that may never have worked for, or like yourself have walked from to greener pastures, and take slots from those who have bided their time in the right seat.
Sounds like you are advocating a form of an Industry wide seniority system whilst disparaging a company one.
[QUOTE]The argument that Seniority some how prevents nepotism or brown-nosing is just bleatings from the totally naive/QUOTE]
No, not naive, just understand how nepotism or brown nosing will also be apparent (and more unregulated) in a system that does not have seniority.
Obviously an argument for direct entry command may exist when a company introduces new types, suffers a lack of experience due to expansion, or can't get applicants (basings etc), otherwise, to my way of thinking, it is just guys pinching jobs.
Anyway that's my view, ...which is from the left seat.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Gold Coast
Age: 56
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In an industry where by your skills are supposed to be equal to those in your rank/work group, i.e. Capt=Capt, FA=FA and so on, seniority has its' place, merit is too hard to measure. Then there is staff travel!
The thread intention was for rosters? The only reason why seniority works is because it means during a roster build a roster cannot be tampered with for whatever reason - or - if it has it can be audited applying the 'fairness' of seniority.
I understand that Q737 have rotational seniority, to me seems fair. I am cc l/h and I must say I like that we all have to do reserve.
If seniority was removed I would most certainly take a pay cut. The question I am asking, last EBA we took our $3000 sign on bonus - then gradually lost our LA's - short trips and long range pay. In keeping the status quo in the last EBA I have certainly taken a pay cut.
Is seniority worth keeping for sustainability. Me thinks not. Part 2 crew in l/h cc could easily break away and have a separate EBA. If they were smart, they'd make a deal to snare all flying that had long range pay and decent o/t. Then where would I be? Less pay, Q could then CR QAL l/h ....
For the sake of my future, maybe, seniority for the purpose of rosters should ...
The thread intention was for rosters? The only reason why seniority works is because it means during a roster build a roster cannot be tampered with for whatever reason - or - if it has it can be audited applying the 'fairness' of seniority.
I understand that Q737 have rotational seniority, to me seems fair. I am cc l/h and I must say I like that we all have to do reserve.
If seniority was removed I would most certainly take a pay cut. The question I am asking, last EBA we took our $3000 sign on bonus - then gradually lost our LA's - short trips and long range pay. In keeping the status quo in the last EBA I have certainly taken a pay cut.
Is seniority worth keeping for sustainability. Me thinks not. Part 2 crew in l/h cc could easily break away and have a separate EBA. If they were smart, they'd make a deal to snare all flying that had long range pay and decent o/t. Then where would I be? Less pay, Q could then CR QAL l/h ....
For the sake of my future, maybe, seniority for the purpose of rosters should ...
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 58
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Squarebear, you make it sound all so easy to:
just walk into a command position..
Obviously there are perfectly sound reasons as to why a company would want to promote internally. Being a known quantity in the organisation, familiarity with the paperwork and the office politics for example. Obviously.
To "just walk into a command position" the reality is that these pilots would have built up experience and qualifications over a period of maybe 2 or 3 decades.
As for me taking commands from poeple who "have bided their time in the right seat", well Sunshine, I flew as a FO for various companies in every continent of the world save the polar regions for 16 years before I earned my command. The most senior FO in the company where I got a DEC had less than 1,000 hrs on jets. It seems reasonable that such pilots should "bide their time" a little longer.
As for
advocating a form of an Industry wide seniority system
where did that come from? I have not written that nor do I support such a proposal. The allocations to any safety sensitive position should be based on individual merit-merit which can include exposure to company operations.
If you imagine that I advocate a particular position, then that will remain a perspective that exists solely in your own imagination, nowhere else.
I do support the notion that Airline companies engage in pyschometric assessment of candidates, which would include exercises in logical deduction and clear thinking.
just walk into a command position..
To "just walk into a command position" the reality is that these pilots would have built up experience and qualifications over a period of maybe 2 or 3 decades.
As for me taking commands from poeple who "have bided their time in the right seat", well Sunshine, I flew as a FO for various companies in every continent of the world save the polar regions for 16 years before I earned my command. The most senior FO in the company where I got a DEC had less than 1,000 hrs on jets. It seems reasonable that such pilots should "bide their time" a little longer.
As for
advocating a form of an Industry wide seniority system
If you imagine that I advocate a particular position, then that will remain a perspective that exists solely in your own imagination, nowhere else.
I do support the notion that Airline companies engage in pyschometric assessment of candidates, which would include exercises in logical deduction and clear thinking.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Western Pacific
Posts: 721
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Squarebear,
Heaven forbid your company should ever go bankrupt & put you out of a job, but if it did, what would you do then? Go back to a second officer position in another airline? Do you have enough years left to do that, or are you early 50's? Can you afford to do that, with current family expenses?
Just wondering.
Heaven forbid your company should ever go bankrupt & put you out of a job, but if it did, what would you do then? Go back to a second officer position in another airline? Do you have enough years left to do that, or are you early 50's? Can you afford to do that, with current family expenses?
Just wondering.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South of O
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oakape,
Should my company go bankrupt and I find myself out of work, I will obviously look around, but I do not see any god given right that I expect to get a command in front of some guy who's seniority, experience and sim checks indicate that he is next in line for that command slot, no matter my experience. To do so is just pure arrogance.
Anthill, forgive me for thinking that you are advocating some sort of industry based seniority system, it was just your comment that the Strategic guys having to take there command experience overseas in order to retain their commands led me to believe you suggest that their decades of experience should entitle them to jump the queue here in Australia. IE: Your command is dependant on your experience. If that were to be the accepted case, there would be many overseas pilots coming home to DEC.
(BTW I happen to know a few of those guys, I am in awe of their experience but unfortunately you brought them up by way of example).
Whilst you have undoubtably a great wealth of knowledge, learnt in many parts of the world, I would suggest that a guy with the right amount of experience within the company, esp time with the SOP's, is also bring something to the table as well.
As I said I am not against DEC but for the reasons of new types, lack of experience due to expansion, or can't get applicants (basings etc).
Do you support 457 Visa's as a general rule as well?
I note your comment re pyschometric assessment of candidates, I advocate CRM as well as psychometric. Hopefully you don't call all who disagree such names as Sunshine etc.
Should my company go bankrupt and I find myself out of work, I will obviously look around, but I do not see any god given right that I expect to get a command in front of some guy who's seniority, experience and sim checks indicate that he is next in line for that command slot, no matter my experience. To do so is just pure arrogance.
Anthill, forgive me for thinking that you are advocating some sort of industry based seniority system, it was just your comment that the Strategic guys having to take there command experience overseas in order to retain their commands led me to believe you suggest that their decades of experience should entitle them to jump the queue here in Australia. IE: Your command is dependant on your experience. If that were to be the accepted case, there would be many overseas pilots coming home to DEC.
(BTW I happen to know a few of those guys, I am in awe of their experience but unfortunately you brought them up by way of example).
Whilst you have undoubtably a great wealth of knowledge, learnt in many parts of the world, I would suggest that a guy with the right amount of experience within the company, esp time with the SOP's, is also bring something to the table as well.
As I said I am not against DEC but for the reasons of new types, lack of experience due to expansion, or can't get applicants (basings etc).
Do you support 457 Visa's as a general rule as well?
I note your comment re pyschometric assessment of candidates, I advocate CRM as well as psychometric. Hopefully you don't call all who disagree such names as Sunshine etc.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Darwin
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OHS and Safety implications
This is not just about rosters. Lack of control in the workplace has been linked to coronary disease, muscular skeletal problems, fatigue, depression, anxiety and other health conditions. I agree that compared to starvation and being in a war zone this is a relatively minor issue. However, fairness and equality and inequity in any area of life is an important issue. Structural disadvantage is wrong.
A captain recently said he sees it as a safety issue as well. Domestic wise the most junior crew are often working up the front. The captain did not think that having the least experienced crew in that section a good thing.
A captain recently said he sees it as a safety issue as well. Domestic wise the most junior crew are often working up the front. The captain did not think that having the least experienced crew in that section a good thing.
Last edited by LHLisa; 8th Apr 2012 at 23:07.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WTF?
Must have been a quiet night at the crew hotel. So are you saying that the "junior" flight attendants didn't meet the standards required to work at the front of the aircraft? Are you saying that the more "senior" crew should be working at the front?
Bugger, that sounds like a seniority system where the more junior personnel should be working up the back with the great unwashed while you as a more senior person apply your hard fought experience in business...Sounds like a seniority issue to me.
Bugger, that sounds like a seniority system where the more junior personnel should be working up the back with the great unwashed while you as a more senior person apply your hard fought experience in business...Sounds like a seniority issue to me.