Seniority - is it time to get rid of it?
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Seniority is a two edged sword. What you people in QF LH are subjected to is its worst manifestation. Senior people will always respond withe the "stuff you jack, I'm alright" mentality that has tainted the culture of the industry for long enough.
By all means, go to the Ombudsman. Submit Fatigue reports and explain any arduous duties. Get together with some junior FAs and elect some representation. This later point could be difficult as the 'senior' people are often the ones who assess you and could be out to get you on your next check (same goes for pilots
).
A fair way for you to be allocated flying would be for you to recieve a rotating 'duty allocation number' every month-where you get increasing seniority each roster period until you fall off the top and start at the bottom again.
As for Pilots, although Seniority gives the illusion of stability, it provides the opposite. Seniority worked in a stable, regulated industry (although it still disadvantaged high-performing individuals against those who were more datally senior). In an unregulated industry, seniority locks in Pilots to an employer and prohibits them from leaving for a more lucrative position at the same rank. It prevents experienced Pilots from obtaining employment at a rank that is suited to their experience. Without portability of our qualifications and experience, how can we be paid a true market rate?
I have been opposed to the concept of Seniority since the mid-1980s when the company I worked for decided to order B1900s. Holding the Seniority number of '2' in the company, I was to train on the first type as a Captain. I had 2300 hrs on piston engined unpressurised single crew aircraft, about 1400 hrs on twins. We had 2 guys (seniority number 13 & 14) who had 10,000+, C&T on ME, multi-crew turbine aircraft(CASA 212s, Do212, Nomads, king airs etc//) who were to be overlooked for the type. Ridiculous? Sure was.
Seniority also lowers the Terms and Conditions under which Pilots are employed. Without portability of our labour (to equivalent or higher rank and better conditions), employers need not offer more than the minimum that they can get away with. In the end, Seniority is a mechanism that regulates the supply side of the labour market in a way the is not to our advantage. Given that the demand for Pilots has exploded in the last 10 years, why has our salaries gone down? Seniority is supported and maintained by those who tend to hold rank in the company and the union. These are invariably those who are "senior". Remember the axiom of "F#$% you jack.."? The hypocracy is that many of these guys often say "It's the future for the young blokes that we worry about.." Oh, really
Seniority assumes that all Pilots are created equal, which is clearlr not the case. In any other profession, we want the best most experienced person to work for us. Would you accept the most datally senior surgeon for you daughter's brain operation? The most datally senior Barrister to defend your son in a murder trial? No, we would want THE BEST, MOST EXPERIENCED person for the job to be on the case. Why should it different for Pilots?
Promotion under datal seniority may preclude the best available pilot from getting the next promotion (unless they also happen to be the most senior). Obviously, promotion may also be awarded to the most unsuitable person in the Pilot body. The result is that we cannot ensure a professional standard in our industry that is evolving in a positive way. A mediocre Captain becomes a mediocre example for his inexperienced co-pilots- and an incredible source of frustration for the experienced, less datally senior ones!
In the current dynamic, deregulated industry, the concept of Seniority has done its day. It has a negative impact on our renumeration and opportunities. It ensures that mediocrity becomes the norm and it is manifestly unfair to experience, well qualified Pilots who have been retrenched from other companies. Seniority is an Ass.
By all means, go to the Ombudsman. Submit Fatigue reports and explain any arduous duties. Get together with some junior FAs and elect some representation. This later point could be difficult as the 'senior' people are often the ones who assess you and could be out to get you on your next check (same goes for pilots
). A fair way for you to be allocated flying would be for you to recieve a rotating 'duty allocation number' every month-where you get increasing seniority each roster period until you fall off the top and start at the bottom again.
As for Pilots, although Seniority gives the illusion of stability, it provides the opposite. Seniority worked in a stable, regulated industry (although it still disadvantaged high-performing individuals against those who were more datally senior). In an unregulated industry, seniority locks in Pilots to an employer and prohibits them from leaving for a more lucrative position at the same rank. It prevents experienced Pilots from obtaining employment at a rank that is suited to their experience. Without portability of our qualifications and experience, how can we be paid a true market rate?
I have been opposed to the concept of Seniority since the mid-1980s when the company I worked for decided to order B1900s. Holding the Seniority number of '2' in the company, I was to train on the first type as a Captain. I had 2300 hrs on piston engined unpressurised single crew aircraft, about 1400 hrs on twins. We had 2 guys (seniority number 13 & 14) who had 10,000+, C&T on ME, multi-crew turbine aircraft(CASA 212s, Do212, Nomads, king airs etc//) who were to be overlooked for the type. Ridiculous? Sure was.
Seniority also lowers the Terms and Conditions under which Pilots are employed. Without portability of our labour (to equivalent or higher rank and better conditions), employers need not offer more than the minimum that they can get away with. In the end, Seniority is a mechanism that regulates the supply side of the labour market in a way the is not to our advantage. Given that the demand for Pilots has exploded in the last 10 years, why has our salaries gone down? Seniority is supported and maintained by those who tend to hold rank in the company and the union. These are invariably those who are "senior". Remember the axiom of "F#$% you jack.."? The hypocracy is that many of these guys often say "It's the future for the young blokes that we worry about.." Oh, really
Seniority assumes that all Pilots are created equal, which is clearlr not the case. In any other profession, we want the best most experienced person to work for us. Would you accept the most datally senior surgeon for you daughter's brain operation? The most datally senior Barrister to defend your son in a murder trial? No, we would want THE BEST, MOST EXPERIENCED person for the job to be on the case. Why should it different for Pilots?
Promotion under datal seniority may preclude the best available pilot from getting the next promotion (unless they also happen to be the most senior). Obviously, promotion may also be awarded to the most unsuitable person in the Pilot body. The result is that we cannot ensure a professional standard in our industry that is evolving in a positive way. A mediocre Captain becomes a mediocre example for his inexperienced co-pilots- and an incredible source of frustration for the experienced, less datally senior ones!
In the current dynamic, deregulated industry, the concept of Seniority has done its day. It has a negative impact on our renumeration and opportunities. It ensures that mediocrity becomes the norm and it is manifestly unfair to experience, well qualified Pilots who have been retrenched from other companies. Seniority is an Ass.
Last edited by Anthill; 28th Mar 2012 at 10:04.
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Great post. One might think that this is the precise reason why seniority systems have not taken off in most other industries. Of course, one might then question the effect of having a merit-based promotion and remuneration system, and whether such a system might open up the possibility of favouritism and nepotism. Does it? Well, speaking as someone who spent a significant amount of time in a corporate industry prior to entering aviation, anecdotally there's certainly a lot of cases of people of equal skill and experience earning different salaries, being given inequal opportunities and so on. But by the same token, you can't fault the ability to move between organisations without committing career suicide (and indeed, using the ability to move between organisations as leverage to gain better opportunities or remuneration for oneself). The grass is always greener, I suppose...
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Then everyone is happy?
Wrong
Married people with kids will be unhappy
Those in a relationship and want to work together will be unhappy.
Wrong
Married people with kids will be unhappy
Those in a relationship and want to work together will be unhappy.
The happy medium of everyone being able to choose rosters regularly (but not all the time) that KLM cabin crew employs seems to keep everyone I know there happy.
And at the very least you can look your colleagues in the eye and not resent their better deal which they did nothing special for to earn.
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Too right, Anthill. Especially when it comes to being CLEARLY more qualified for a promotion as in your B1900 example. (Though more hours doesn't necessarily mean smarter, a better learner and problem solver. I know in my industry writing more lines of code only gets you so far too. Doesn't mean you get to the point of being smart enough to create Google just because you write a lot of code...)
The hardest bit comes when you and your mate out of the same intake are moving up. You know you are smarter, and people around you know it. Of course he can fly an airplane safely even though he sometimes may hesitate a little longer before making a decision. But when the **** really hits the fan, who knows what he might do? Everyone knows YOU will be a solid performer.
But how can you prove that with numbers? How do you quantify that? What if, after seeing many in his class get promotions but he keeps being passed over and he takes it to court? Can you prove there is a good reason for not promoting him? Saying "we have a bad feeling" won't satisfy a judge.
I am sure without the seniority system, cases like this would happen all the time. It's not right, but what can you do?
For promotions, it's almost damned if you do, damned if you don't.
The hardest bit comes when you and your mate out of the same intake are moving up. You know you are smarter, and people around you know it. Of course he can fly an airplane safely even though he sometimes may hesitate a little longer before making a decision. But when the **** really hits the fan, who knows what he might do? Everyone knows YOU will be a solid performer.
But how can you prove that with numbers? How do you quantify that? What if, after seeing many in his class get promotions but he keeps being passed over and he takes it to court? Can you prove there is a good reason for not promoting him? Saying "we have a bad feeling" won't satisfy a judge.
I am sure without the seniority system, cases like this would happen all the time. It's not right, but what can you do?
For promotions, it's almost damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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QF Cabin Services Attitude to Seniority
LG indicates to everyone who will listen that seniority is evil
The bid system is also evil.
Ask a Baron what they think of seniority and then ask a junior 744 Captain what they think.
Squirrel Caging or rotating seniority is a good proposition.
The 767 guys are rational and reasonable in sofar as they share HNLs.
As far as CC are concerned most were happy pre 1988.Allocated rosters meant everyone got a share of eveything
The bid system is also evil.
Ask a Baron what they think of seniority and then ask a junior 744 Captain what they think.
Squirrel Caging or rotating seniority is a good proposition.
The 767 guys are rational and reasonable in sofar as they share HNLs.
As far as CC are concerned most were happy pre 1988.Allocated rosters meant everyone got a share of eveything
A fully deregulated non seniority labour market in Australia would result in a decrease in captains salaries as every expat/military/foreign national with a work visa will be applying to get a walk up command.
It will be awesome if you are a australian airline or want to get a job overseas as I would imagine it would cause alot of resignations at foreign airlines and the australian airlines will get a magic pudding of instant captains with 15000+ experience. Not so good if you've just battled your way through GA and the regionals and a jet command slot was on the horizon.
It will be awesome if you are a australian airline or want to get a job overseas as I would imagine it would cause alot of resignations at foreign airlines and the australian airlines will get a magic pudding of instant captains with 15000+ experience. Not so good if you've just battled your way through GA and the regionals and a jet command slot was on the horizon.
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Or...
In the old farts section.
Seniority is not an issue restricted to trolley dollies.
There are many commercial pilots who aren't happy with it either.Are you a Barron Bloggsy?
Seniority is not an issue restricted to trolley dollies.
There are many commercial pilots who aren't happy with it either.Are you a Barron Bloggsy?
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Seniority - is it time to get rid of it?
The last result at FAAA poll (about 18 months ago ?) on this very subject was a resounding vote of 83% in favour of retaining the current system.
So there is your answer.
The last result at FAAA poll (about 18 months ago ?) on this very subject was a resounding vote of 83% in favour of retaining the current system.
So there is your answer.
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Anthill, you raise a valid point, but then there is the flip side.
You have been busting your ass for 15 years with the company to get to the left hand seat of your dream machine. You have put up with the highs and the lows of the company, lay-offs and being called back etc etc.
They then hire someone who has a few thousand more hours than you, and they get bumped into the left hand seat ahead of you and you have to wait another 5 years.
Seniority rewards loyalty. Is that such a bad thing?
Again, the argument with hours. This argument has been thrown backwards and forwards through multiple different arguments. Someone has been doing 10,000hrs of instructing, meat bombing and banner towing, and decides to take the airline route. You have 5,000hrs of operational experience with the company. Relative experience is the key, not total experience.
As for the F/A's. I don't really see how you can move up the seniority ranks without time served. Why should someone who has been through the above mentioned unfortunate circumstances, have to be given the same terms and conditions as a newbie?
Date of Join Seniority makes sense over a ranking seniority. The ranking seniority is only there to keep the costs of crew down so you don't end up with a bunch of dinosaurs for crew.
That is something that should be bought up with your union.
You have been busting your ass for 15 years with the company to get to the left hand seat of your dream machine. You have put up with the highs and the lows of the company, lay-offs and being called back etc etc.
They then hire someone who has a few thousand more hours than you, and they get bumped into the left hand seat ahead of you and you have to wait another 5 years.
Seniority rewards loyalty. Is that such a bad thing?
Again, the argument with hours. This argument has been thrown backwards and forwards through multiple different arguments. Someone has been doing 10,000hrs of instructing, meat bombing and banner towing, and decides to take the airline route. You have 5,000hrs of operational experience with the company. Relative experience is the key, not total experience.
As for the F/A's. I don't really see how you can move up the seniority ranks without time served. Why should someone who has been through the above mentioned unfortunate circumstances, have to be given the same terms and conditions as a newbie?
Date of Join Seniority makes sense over a ranking seniority. The ranking seniority is only there to keep the costs of crew down so you don't end up with a bunch of dinosaurs for crew.
That is something that should be bought up with your union.
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The last result at FAAA poll (about 18 months ago ?) on this very subject was a resounding vote of 83% in favour of retaining the current system.
If there wasn't, then of course people will vote for certainty, instead of uncertainty. Just saying'...
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Why should someone who has been through the above mentioned unfortunate circumstances, have to be given the same terms and conditions as a newbie?
If you start in any other business (say, a trade) you will probably work harder and get paid less than your peers initially. But then, year after year, you move up in salary and conditions until after a few years you are on the same level as the people doing the same job at the same "rank" as you are. Without anybody else needing to quit.
That is the difference between a fair system and seniority.
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For cabin crew we do have crew on differents rates and conditions , QAL and QCCA, not to mention an AKL base, domestic casuals, in different divisions also, a London Base.
I spoke to the union about this at a union meeting 2 weeks ago. 2 union officials were very empathetic and understanding of the problem but admitted they see no solution. The 3rd union official informed me that I was very lucky to have the choice of being about to go and work on the A380 and thereby work an extra 40 hours per roster, have 6 less sick days a year, and various other inferior conditions, but not have to work under seniority. Fantastic choice!! Our union instigated the QCCA crew agreement (QCCA work 40 hours per roster more, and earn less money), to protect senior crew. The union will not help me with this. I was hoping someone here might have an idea outside the square so to speak. I have been invited to meet with upper management to discuss this next roster. But again, as someone posted here managemen't does not care how the pay and work are distributed, so long as it is done.
Our problem is that the seniority systems makes a great life for the top 30%, who are also the most motivated to tell the union that seniority must stay and not ever change. The union officials are also senior crew. Can't anyone else here see that this is an OHS issue, not just about money in our pay packet, and should be treated as an OHS issue? I have been toldsome 2nd officers feel that seniority is difficult for them with no movement and no growth in the company
Lilflyboy mentioned something about not ending up with dinosaur crew. Has anyone seen our cabin crew.... ?
I spoke to the union about this at a union meeting 2 weeks ago. 2 union officials were very empathetic and understanding of the problem but admitted they see no solution. The 3rd union official informed me that I was very lucky to have the choice of being about to go and work on the A380 and thereby work an extra 40 hours per roster, have 6 less sick days a year, and various other inferior conditions, but not have to work under seniority. Fantastic choice!! Our union instigated the QCCA crew agreement (QCCA work 40 hours per roster more, and earn less money), to protect senior crew. The union will not help me with this. I was hoping someone here might have an idea outside the square so to speak. I have been invited to meet with upper management to discuss this next roster. But again, as someone posted here managemen't does not care how the pay and work are distributed, so long as it is done.
Our problem is that the seniority systems makes a great life for the top 30%, who are also the most motivated to tell the union that seniority must stay and not ever change. The union officials are also senior crew. Can't anyone else here see that this is an OHS issue, not just about money in our pay packet, and should be treated as an OHS issue? I have been toldsome 2nd officers feel that seniority is difficult for them with no movement and no growth in the company
Lilflyboy mentioned something about not ending up with dinosaur crew. Has anyone seen our cabin crew.... ?
Last edited by LHLisa; 28th Mar 2012 at 22:04.
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Discrimination based on ageism is on an equal footing with other areas of discrimination , put simply it is illegal.
LHlisa, the Age Discrimination Commissioners office is available to you ,raising awareness of age discrimination, educating the community about the impact of age discrimination and monitoring and advocating for the elimination of age discrimination across all areas of public life.I suggest you seek them out.
LHlisa, the Age Discrimination Commissioners office is available to you ,raising awareness of age discrimination, educating the community about the impact of age discrimination and monitoring and advocating for the elimination of age discrimination across all areas of public life.I suggest you seek them out.
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In regards the FAAA poll on seniority I believe the case for the YES and NO vote was very clearly explained to the membership.
A YES vote was accepting the current status quo , "warts and all" with a clear understanding that in an environment of no growth, everyone is frozen in the seniority ladder and that there is no possibility of improvement in roster quality until further growth in international flying (requiring employment) occurs.
A NO vote , would then have required the FAAA to conduct a subsequent detailed survey to ascertain what changes the membership would like.
I think the message from the voters was loud and clear.
A YES vote was accepting the current status quo , "warts and all" with a clear understanding that in an environment of no growth, everyone is frozen in the seniority ladder and that there is no possibility of improvement in roster quality until further growth in international flying (requiring employment) occurs.
A NO vote , would then have required the FAAA to conduct a subsequent detailed survey to ascertain what changes the membership would like.
I think the message from the voters was loud and clear.
seniors always take the better breaks
If not, the next time someone tries to tell you they get the better break because they are 'senior', politely tell them to f*&k off. Unless its written (e.g. such as rostering/promotions) they haven't got a leg to stand on.
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Sometimes I dislike my mining FIFO job, after working 30 years in an industry which saw me home almost every night. Constantly away from home (like longhaulers), short breaks home (9 on, 5 off) constant short haul travel, no time to actually get hands-on with GA as I used to, missing anniversaries, birthdays, social events. The boat is used only spasmodically, the motorbike(s) aren't being ridden.
And then I follow threads like this. Thank god I work in an industry where ability is rewarded, and, in a rapidly expanding industry, promotion is rapid. My rise over the last five years has been rapid, both in renumeration and responsibilitites attached. Looking at the EBA figures quoted for Skywest F100 captains, I'm on significantly more than the bloke that gets us to work and back safely, sometimes in difficult conditions on a runway that apparently only just meets the minima for F100-class operations. But he isn't doing anywhere near the hours I am either. I only have those life-enhancing toys because I am doing the job I am--previous to this, I had to sell all that stuff to financially survive. So I will just have to enjoy them on my eight weeks (in real terms) annual leave. I may not like having to commute to Perth to join the charter to site, and the last one I flew was delayed leaving Geraldton (Q400)by almost four hours. OK for me, I have been kept updated by Q via sms, and just delayed leaving home. But the lovely CC , who had been on duty all that time, was quite chatty with me, back in 19B; she had began in Melbourne that morning and it was something like 0200 Melbourne time for her by the time we were at destination. I really felt for her, and hope she had a decent break before resuming duty.
So, the point of all this ramble? I agree with you Lisa, old entrenched seniority systems are preserved by those in power, because, By God, " I had to do the time and work to get here, and no-one is taking that off me " Preservation of the status quo is their aim, and you will get nothing more than lip service to anything else. In fact, probably lucky to get that. I can here the rumblings up the back from here "..bloody SLF, piss off or at least have the decency to be a spectator only" And unions are part of that self-serving hierarchy, as it has been pointed out, don't expect any genuine help there. Another reason I stay away from unionised sites, and stay in rapidly expanding areas. The old last on first off mentality, the job for life, the purple circles--dinosaurs, all of them. And fierce when all that time-gained value is threatened. Steadily ossifying, and only helping themselves. And before anyone bothers to ask where I will be , on my individual agreement, when it all goes tits-up...don't bother. I will be in exactly the same boat as the unionised, because the unions can DO NOTHING. Except make a lot of noise and ask for a taxpayer handout.
Experience and ability do not necessarily equate with seniority. So, Lisa your choice; do the miles and rise through the system, or go somewhere they value actual input, rather than time-serving. Good luck.
And then I follow threads like this. Thank god I work in an industry where ability is rewarded, and, in a rapidly expanding industry, promotion is rapid. My rise over the last five years has been rapid, both in renumeration and responsibilitites attached. Looking at the EBA figures quoted for Skywest F100 captains, I'm on significantly more than the bloke that gets us to work and back safely, sometimes in difficult conditions on a runway that apparently only just meets the minima for F100-class operations. But he isn't doing anywhere near the hours I am either. I only have those life-enhancing toys because I am doing the job I am--previous to this, I had to sell all that stuff to financially survive. So I will just have to enjoy them on my eight weeks (in real terms) annual leave. I may not like having to commute to Perth to join the charter to site, and the last one I flew was delayed leaving Geraldton (Q400)by almost four hours. OK for me, I have been kept updated by Q via sms, and just delayed leaving home. But the lovely CC , who had been on duty all that time, was quite chatty with me, back in 19B; she had began in Melbourne that morning and it was something like 0200 Melbourne time for her by the time we were at destination. I really felt for her, and hope she had a decent break before resuming duty.
So, the point of all this ramble? I agree with you Lisa, old entrenched seniority systems are preserved by those in power, because, By God, " I had to do the time and work to get here, and no-one is taking that off me " Preservation of the status quo is their aim, and you will get nothing more than lip service to anything else. In fact, probably lucky to get that. I can here the rumblings up the back from here "..bloody SLF, piss off or at least have the decency to be a spectator only" And unions are part of that self-serving hierarchy, as it has been pointed out, don't expect any genuine help there. Another reason I stay away from unionised sites, and stay in rapidly expanding areas. The old last on first off mentality, the job for life, the purple circles--dinosaurs, all of them. And fierce when all that time-gained value is threatened. Steadily ossifying, and only helping themselves. And before anyone bothers to ask where I will be , on my individual agreement, when it all goes tits-up...don't bother. I will be in exactly the same boat as the unionised, because the unions can DO NOTHING. Except make a lot of noise and ask for a taxpayer handout.
Experience and ability do not necessarily equate with seniority. So, Lisa your choice; do the miles and rise through the system, or go somewhere they value actual input, rather than time-serving. Good luck.
I am a supporter of the seniority system, but that doesn't have to be rigid. As a general rule, it makes your career more stable and predictable, and certainty is crucial for businesses and individuals alike.
The flip side is that I agree that the seniority system needs to be reasonably functional for ALL stakeholders. Junior crew need to be able to achieve a reasonable work/life balance, and employers should have the flex to train the most appropriate individuals for new positions (i.e. training a 64 yo 767 captain to fly airbuses for the first time to do 10 months service is clearly a waste of everyone's time and money - except for that one individual)
For me - seniority systems work when they are important, but not the ONLY thing that runs the HR system.
The flip side is that I agree that the seniority system needs to be reasonably functional for ALL stakeholders. Junior crew need to be able to achieve a reasonable work/life balance, and employers should have the flex to train the most appropriate individuals for new positions (i.e. training a 64 yo 767 captain to fly airbuses for the first time to do 10 months service is clearly a waste of everyone's time and money - except for that one individual)
For me - seniority systems work when they are important, but not the ONLY thing that runs the HR system.
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Anthill +1.
Ranmar +1.
Unions are good for preventing exploitation of the bottom-of-the-ladder exploited. I appreciated my union when I was in my first job - they got me a living wage as opposed to having to work for free or some other nonsense.
But since then, every advancement I've had, has been through my own ability and hard work. (Which I don't take credit for - good parents, quality education, supportive wife etc. Point is, the union gets zero credit.)
I think seniority does not reward loyalty. I think seniority rewards stability: the ability to stay in one job for a long time. The most senior pilots I know sound very disloyal to the employer - quite bitter in fact. My advice is: if you don't like the job, get another one! Oh but you can't, because of seniority...
Ranmar +1.
Unions are good for preventing exploitation of the bottom-of-the-ladder exploited. I appreciated my union when I was in my first job - they got me a living wage as opposed to having to work for free or some other nonsense.
But since then, every advancement I've had, has been through my own ability and hard work. (Which I don't take credit for - good parents, quality education, supportive wife etc. Point is, the union gets zero credit.)
I think seniority does not reward loyalty. I think seniority rewards stability: the ability to stay in one job for a long time. The most senior pilots I know sound very disloyal to the employer - quite bitter in fact. My advice is: if you don't like the job, get another one! Oh but you can't, because of seniority...