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RADIO CALLS!

Old 8th Jan 2012, 23:25
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Townsville
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RADIO CALLS!

I am in the air on a daily basis and it amazes me how a lot of pilots (both commercial and private) use there own terminology for IFR flying both on arrival and departure of any aerodrome. It tends to frustrate myself and the controllers constantly!

Just detailing a few as I have to constantly turn down my radio when pilots spend up to 3 minutes wasting valuable airways times when it is completly unnecessary and avoidable.

First of all, when transmitting you are in PRESENT TENSE not PAST TENSE!

You donít speak this way when talking on the phone or to someone face to face! eg.

Should be :

"ABC, Taxiing runway 18 for a departure to the South"

NOT

"ABC, Taxi's runway 18 for a departure to the South"

Also, IFR Departure and Taxi Reports should be transmitted with the correct sequence WITHOUT the use of "ABC, IFR Departure" and "ABC, IFR Taxi".

The ATC controller is already waiting for you to depart and/or taxi and is expecting you to just say the departure report or taxi report! Both types of radio calls are not published or listed in AIP or JEPPS and wastes valuable radio silence in the event of an emergency.

This also includes using the word 'TIME'! When transmitting your departure report, the use of the word 'TIME' is not necessary as the numerical minute is only required.

"ABC DEPARTED (location) at *(time), CLIMBING TO (intended level)
ESTIMATING (first reporting point) AT *(time).

* the word TIME prior to the minute is not stated and should not be used.

See: JEPPS ATC AU-715 6.3.2 and (AIP GEN 3.4-48 5.14.4)

READ OVER:
Departure Reports
Requirements for departure reports are found on JEPPS ATC AU-936 8.8 (AIP GEN 3.4-56 5.14.8 & AIP ENR 1.1-73 43.3)

And finally, cancelling Sarwatch should be phrased for an IFR Aircraft as:

"ABC, Landed (location) cancel SARWATCH' or "ABC, in the circuit area (location) cancel SARWATCH".

NOT SAR!

There are two types, SARWATCH AND SARTIME, and both used for different reasons and flight operations.

I am only passing on this information as there seems to be a lack of standardisation across the aviation community. We all must keep our radio calls short, concise and brief whilst using the standard terminology when we can.
Like a refresher for everyone...that is all!
Cheers

Hold_Short is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2012, 23:45
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
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Any leave coming up ??
Best Rate is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2012, 23:50
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Join Date: Jan 2008
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Grab a bottle of wine on the way home from work ay!

I notice you are in Townsville, and you mention controllers are sharing your frustrations?

I get frustrated flying in and out of Townsville too-not from other people's calls, but because of the "controlling"

Better grab a case of wine shags.
Flava Saver is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2012, 00:04
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Join Date: Mar 2005
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I agree with Hold Short,

The use of correct radio phraseologies seems to have become a low priority in IFR training schools and with a significant number of pilots in general.

Cheers.

VH-MLE
VH-MLE is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2012, 00:11
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Spot on Hold_Short, there's a reason for the myriad of pages in AIP/Jepp so really no excuse for getting it wrong.

The problem I see is with enforcing the standards. An ATO/checky is going to come across as a real hard-a$$ if they start nailing people for spitting out a slightly-incorrect phrase while they're under the pump - after all the aim of the game is aviate/navigate/communicate. This puts the onus on the individual pilot to maintain (or get!) the standard that everyone expects.

However, in a busy radio environment I can justify the use of "ABC, departure" etc. - the amount of times I've heard ATC require a repeat because of the length and detail of the calls (no ones fault, they're just full of pretty important information). Like everything, it comes down to common sense/airmanship to know when to jump in and when to wait. My way of (nearly) complying with AIP/Jepp in that scenario would be to say:
  • IFR Taxi: "ML CEN, ABC?"; and
  • Departure Report: "ABC, departure".

In those scenarios (while it's busy) the controller has your callsign for your flightplan and also has the chance to request that you standby. If it's quiet then go for whatever AIP/Jepp says - after all it's ASA that writes the publication; if they want it changed they can.

So how do we fix it? I'm a believer that, although all CASA/ASA publications can now be downloaded for free online, the hard copies should all be substantially cheaper. This way, the cost burden will be significantly less on a new pilot (including RAA); and they can learn everything the right way from the beginning.

So, for:
  • RAA/GA pilots: All instructors should face a grilling in FIR initials/renewals/upgrades for incorrect phraseology because they're the ones that set the standard; and
  • RPT pilots: Sim/route checkies should be all over the standard their pilots are either maintaining or ignoring. I know on my check forms you either meet the standard or you don't.

You'll see that I've left AFRs out of the list there for GA pilots. The standard I've seen set by at least half of AFR applicants (mostly PPLs) has been SO low that nailing them on R/T procedures is only going to drive them away and make them adverse to being reviewed every two years. In this case, if it's not blatantly unsafe then it's probably better to let it go and concentrate on the major items.

In the big picture, there are plenty more unsafe acts that require everyone's attention but this one is an easy fix. You can't hardly change a pilot's hazardous attitude towards their everyday flying BUT R/T procedures can easily be fixed by sitting down and reading the appropriate AIP/Jepp. Unfortunately, people think once they sit and pass the RAA/GFPT/PPL/CPL flight test(s) the study stops!
ConfigFull is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2012, 00:25
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"ABC, Taxiing runway 18 for a departure to the South"

NOT

"ABC, Taxi's runway 18 for a departure to the South"

Good grief, only in australia would this willy waving debate exist.
Zapatas Blood is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2012, 00:32
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If the aircraft has been operating IFR there is no possibility of confusion as it can only have one type of SAR. While it may not be quite standard there is no risk.

If comms are crap or I'm busy then the brief warning transmission can be a time saver, not waster as I don't have to get you to say it all again. I'm not just sitting there waiting for your call, believe me. Might be the case at a towered aerodrome where they can see you getting ready but not for the rest.

Far more time is wasted by pilots not listening before they transmit.
le Pingouin is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2012, 00:35
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I STRONGLY AGREE CONFIGFULL!!

You have come in a side angle to the argument and I appreciate your input. My company, like many others, put a strong emphasis on getting the radio calls right, as it is a show of pressessionalism, not only for yourself, but the company you represent.

The moral of the argument is that you just need to understand the required format from ATC/ASA and/or AIP/JEPPS to respect the information you are required to transmit. It is such an easy thing to master and get right all of the time (circumstance dependant) that you shouldn't really have to think too much about the format, just the content.

It truely is that easy. That is what the Aeronautical Information Publication is for!

As for the instructors and RPT operators who are regularly on flying duties must set a standard. It shows though the students who are coming up through the industry that there must be a bar and standard to reach. Then the rest is just fill in the blanks.

By no means am I generalising the discussion or singling out operators... but on the otherside of the coin, it sure is not rocket science!

Thanks
Hold_Short is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2012, 00:39
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Agreed, a lot of 'willie waving'. Anal Australian ATC has a firm grasp of the non-essentials, sometimes cringeworthy when I operate into Australian airspace with foreign guys and gals in the cockpit.

Aussie ATC is a standing joke in my airline.

I do sympathise with the individual ATCO's, who have to toe the party line.

Last edited by Captain Dart; 9th Jan 2012 at 00:53.
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Old 9th Jan 2012, 00:42
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Understand Le Pingouin!

Dont take offence to the word 'just sitting there'. What I was trying to say was the controller has your flight plan and your ETD and by this I mean you may not be a 'surprise radio call'.

If you are an ATC controller for either AREA/TERMINAL/APPROACH I would like to know a bit more of the frustrations there are between controller and pilot which you might be able to add your two cents to the disscussion!
Hold_Short is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2012, 00:57
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Try flying into other countries and you might see how bad it isnt in Australia
1a sound asleep is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2012, 01:10
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HOLD SHORT-

If you are so concerned about the valuable extra seconds some ppl take you might want to consider in your departure report altitude passing, just saves the controller asking you to verify level, you having to say it then ATC having to acknowledge 2 wasted transmissions there mate.
chickoroll is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2012, 01:17
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Waste of time, chickoroll, if your not in a radar environment.
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Old 9th Jan 2012, 01:18
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And finally, cancelling Sarwatch should be phrased for an IFR Aircraft as:

"ABC, Landed (location) cancel SARWATCH' or "ABC, in the circuit area (location) cancel SARWATCH".
You don't say "Landed" anymore.

Hey Zapa, you bored? Trawling DG RP from Mehico? How about you mind your own business? It must really irk you that some of us like doing things properly. Geez, words have to be said, what's the big deal with saying them correctly??

When's my IFR Taxi arriving?! I ordered it ages ago!
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2012, 01:27
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Over transmissions or not waiting for a response (when it's required) before starting your radio call would be up there. We have a local issue here where aircraft on the ground often can't hear people calling inbound at 40nm so it isn't really anyone's fault but it can be frustrating at times.

As a tower controller, generally if you are the only one in the air I don't need a heads up for your departure report. However if it's busy then I appreciate it. Often I am doing coord with Centre or a myriad of other things and the departure report is often a fair way down my list of priorities, so you may get a standby while I deal with other things.
Awol57 is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2012, 01:32
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Don't go flying in the US then

I must admit the lack of 'ings' annoy the crap out of me.
MACH082 is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2012, 01:34
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First of all, when transmitting you are in PRESENT TENSE not PAST TENSE!

You donít speak this way when talking on the phone or to someone face to face!
It's a bit like talking in the 3rd person.

Dutchy really hates it when people talk in the 3rd person. Dutchy thinks it's just a bastardisation of the english language.
DutchRoll is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2012, 01:41
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Although I agree with the original post, radio calls are terrible by some profession pilot's every time I give a taxiing call straight away I always get the controller wanting me to repeat it....

so what to do... repeat the whole thing every time or just give a short burst of ABC IFR taxi, then you know they are listening and ready to copy???
lk978 is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2012, 01:47
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I love it when the person whinging about dodgy phraeseology gives examples of dodgy phraeseology themselves.

"ABC, Taxiing runway 18 for a departure to the South"
This is not even close to correct. I understand the main point was the taxiing, not taxis, but since when are you supposed to say 'for a departure to the south'? Same thing with the SARWATCH call as pointed out earlier.

I think the OP should concentrate on what they are doing and keep the radio turned up, no matter how frustrating.

My company, like many others, put a strong emphasis on getting the radio calls right, as it is a show of pressessionalism, not only for yourself, but the company you represent.
I think you and your company have a way to go, Hold_Short...
scavenger is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2012, 02:13
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CTAF Broadcasts (all Aricraft)
The standard broadcast format is:
Location 'Traffic'
Aircraft type
Callsign
Position/intentions
Location

eg. Griffith Traffic, Cessna 172, ABC, Taxiing rwy 05 for departure to the South, Griffith.

IFR flights include the following information to CTR:
-aircraft type
-POB (for IFR flights other than RPT)
-IFR
-location
-destination or departure quadrant or intentions and
-runway to be used

JEPPS ATC AU-714 6.1.2. (AIP ENR 1.1-69 40.2)

Say what you will.

Also

To Cancel Sarwatch...have a look scavenger!

JEPPS AU-921 7.5.2 & JEPPS AU-721 6.11.1.2 (AIP ENR 1.1-84 52.1.2)

Thanks Capn Bloggs, for the 'landed' cancel SARWATCH...you are correct, it is only LOCATION phrase is used!


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