Norfolk Island Ditching ATSB Report - ?
Once again for clarity (refer my previous post #257), it was NOT Auckland air traffic control's responsibility to pass the amended TAF on Norfolk Island to the Pel Air aircraft. The NZ civil aviation rules clearly indicate that it is not.
If Airservices' staff Jason Harfield and Peter Hobson believes it was, then this is an issue that should have been further investigated and commented on by the ATSB.
If Airservices' staff Jason Harfield and Peter Hobson believes it was, then this is an issue that should have been further investigated and commented on by the ATSB.
Given that NF lies well within airspace controlled and managed by Airways NZ, I can't imagine why Airservices/BNE CEN would be providing FIS for NF, particularly since they wouldn't know about traffic proceeding there from the east and the Pacific.
In any case, an agreement to provide a service or services inside another provider's FIR would be covered by a memorandum of understanding/letter of agreement, detailing exactly who will provide what and where. If such an agreement exists re the provision of FIS re NF, then no doubt Airservices or Airways NZ will be able to produce it to prove responsibility.
Don Quixote Impersonator
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 77
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Help me out here?
I have a distinct recollection of seeing in amongst all of this, but I can't now find it, a transcript of the passing by HF of the relevant TAF by Airways and acknowledgement by NGA, or is it just my imagination?
It may well have been "too late" but ......
I have a distinct recollection of seeing in amongst all of this, but I can't now find it, a transcript of the passing by HF of the relevant TAF by Airways and acknowledgement by NGA, or is it just my imagination?
It may well have been "too late" but ......
The display put on by the Chair and senators in the inquiry is nothing short of embarrassing -childish comments and questions, complete lack of understanding of the regulations and the law
You would do well to give the CV of Senator Fawcett some close scrutiny. He is probably the most qualified aviation expert we have had in the Commonwealth Parliament. And last time I noticed, his civil license and most of his ratings were current. He is far more qualified than Gaunt, I suspect, as for Blackhand, who knows.
Bill Heffernan is also a pilot, his license is not current, but he has long experience on the RRAT, and what has been unearthed so far in the latest of the many inquiries into CASA (and its predecessors) is there for all to see in the Hansard.
Tootle pip!!
Last edited by LeadSled; 20th Nov 2012 at 07:28.
Given that NF lies well within airspace controlled and managed by Airways NZ, …
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sarnia, ON
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GEOFF THOMSON: With good weather forecast, Dominic James headed to Norfolk Island with his fuel tanks 83 per cent full.
The first weather update for Norfolk comes from Air Traffic Control in Fiji.
It says there's some cloud over Norfolk island at 6,000 feet.
This is wrong.
MICK QUINN: In review when you look at the actual weather report that was issued, the actual cloud base was not at 6,000 feet. It was at 600 feet.
That indicates to Dominic, it reinforces his mental picture, that the forecast still is as it was, it's even better than what it was when he got the original forecast when he departed.
MARTIN DOLAN: That's not one that I am familiar with at the level of detail in the report so ...
GEOFF THOMPSON: So it might be a mistake.
MARTIN DOLAN: It, it may well be a mistake. I'll have to take a look at that.
GEOFF THOMSON: And he did.
Last Friday the ATSB acknowledged Dominic James received incorrect weather report from Fiji and changed its report.
DOMINIC JAMES: If I'd been told that there was cloud at 600 feet, even given the fact that I suspected the automatic system was overstating the weather at Norfolk, I would've gone to Fiji.
The first weather update for Norfolk comes from Air Traffic Control in Fiji.
It says there's some cloud over Norfolk island at 6,000 feet.
This is wrong.
MICK QUINN: In review when you look at the actual weather report that was issued, the actual cloud base was not at 6,000 feet. It was at 600 feet.
That indicates to Dominic, it reinforces his mental picture, that the forecast still is as it was, it's even better than what it was when he got the original forecast when he departed.
MARTIN DOLAN: That's not one that I am familiar with at the level of detail in the report so ...
GEOFF THOMPSON: So it might be a mistake.
MARTIN DOLAN: It, it may well be a mistake. I'll have to take a look at that.
GEOFF THOMSON: And he did.
Last Friday the ATSB acknowledged Dominic James received incorrect weather report from Fiji and changed its report.
DOMINIC JAMES: If I'd been told that there was cloud at 600 feet, even given the fact that I suspected the automatic system was overstating the weather at Norfolk, I would've gone to Fiji.
DJ was handed a grenade with the pin pulled.
What has been unearthed at the latest "Inquisition"?
Perhaps if you actually digested some of the relevant Hansard, instead of doing your ostrich impersonation, all would become clear.
Tootle pip!!
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: on the edge
Posts: 823
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LL, why don't you explain, for the edification of a dumb ass blakman, in words of one syllable, exactly what has been unearthed
Last edited by blackhand; 20th Nov 2012 at 20:49.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: S37.54 E145.11
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CaptainMidnight:
Normally, I would concur but, as per my subsequent post #319, I think the responsibility for providing the FIS for YSNF "fell through the cracks" between the Australian and NZ civil aviation agencies when the Norfolk Island FSU closed. And the NZ AIP references would appear to imply that NZ still thinks the FIS responsibility for Norfolk Island lies with Australia.
As you would be aware, prior to its closure in the '90s, the NF FSU used to hold the FIS responsibility for advising aircraft on NF weather during its hours of operation even though it was located within the Auckland Oceanic FIR. Outside of the FSU's hours of operation, the FIS responsibility reverted to the Sydney FSC and subsequently to the BN FSC when the Sydney FSC was closed. My understanding is that the FIS responsibility was totally transferred to the BN FSC when the Norfolk Island FSU was finally decommissioned.
I'm proposing the view, that the issue of Norfolk Island FIS responsibility may have been overlooked by Airservices/CASA/CAANZ/Airways either when the FSU closed or with the subsequent institutional changes implemented by Australia (i.e the integration of ATC/FS functions) as well as the change to the Flightwatch "self help concept" in lieu of the directed FIS.
It's this issue that requires investigation and comment on by the ATSB and, if necessary, be the subject of a safety recommendation so that the appropriate MoU/LoA remedial action, as you have proposed, is implemented between the Australian and NZ agencies so that we don't have a repeat of this situation again in the future.
Given that NF lies well within airspace controlled and managed by Airways NZ, I can't imagine why Airservices/BNE CEN would be providing FIS for NF, particularly since they wouldn't know about traffic proceeding there from the east and the Pacific.
As you would be aware, prior to its closure in the '90s, the NF FSU used to hold the FIS responsibility for advising aircraft on NF weather during its hours of operation even though it was located within the Auckland Oceanic FIR. Outside of the FSU's hours of operation, the FIS responsibility reverted to the Sydney FSC and subsequently to the BN FSC when the Sydney FSC was closed. My understanding is that the FIS responsibility was totally transferred to the BN FSC when the Norfolk Island FSU was finally decommissioned.
I'm proposing the view, that the issue of Norfolk Island FIS responsibility may have been overlooked by Airservices/CASA/CAANZ/Airways either when the FSU closed or with the subsequent institutional changes implemented by Australia (i.e the integration of ATC/FS functions) as well as the change to the Flightwatch "self help concept" in lieu of the directed FIS.
It's this issue that requires investigation and comment on by the ATSB and, if necessary, be the subject of a safety recommendation so that the appropriate MoU/LoA remedial action, as you have proposed, is implemented between the Australian and NZ agencies so that we don't have a repeat of this situation again in the future.
LL, why don't you explain, for the edification of a dumb ass blakman, in
words of one syllable, exactly what has been unearthed
words of one syllable, exactly what has been unearthed
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: on the edge
Posts: 823
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your statement about my cultural heritage and my surmised employer goes to show which one of us is the actual dumbass.
The fact that there are some foolish people in CASA wasn't unearthed in the senate, it has been common knowledge for over 30 years.
What else has been "unearthed", only tell me stuff we didn't know before the buffoons in the senate started their stupid inquisition.
Agree completely
The fact that there are some foolish people in CASA wasn't unearthed in the senate, it has been common knowledge for over 30 years.
What else has been "unearthed", only tell me stuff we didn't know before the buffoons in the senate started their stupid inquisition.
It's this issue that requires investigation and comment on by the ATSB and, if
necessary, be the subject of a safety recommendation so that the appropriate
MoU/LoA remedial action, as you have proposed, is implemented between the
Australian and NZ agencies so that we don't have a repeat of this situation
again in the future.
necessary, be the subject of a safety recommendation so that the appropriate
MoU/LoA remedial action, as you have proposed, is implemented between the
Australian and NZ agencies so that we don't have a repeat of this situation
again in the future.
Last edited by blackhand; 20th Nov 2012 at 23:33.
So anyway ….. QSK? provides a logical and practically reasonable explanation for the apparent lack of mutual understanding, between Australia and New Zealand, as to which of them is responsible for providing what services and where.
So, Australia used to provide an FSU on Norfolk Island. That makes sense: Norfolk Island is part of Australia.
That makes sense: Norfolk Island is part of Australia.
Is anyone aware of or able to point to the agreement with NZ in which NZ promised to take over FIS responsibility for Norfolk Island?
Hear! Hear!
I think the responsibility for providing the FIS for YSNF "fell through the cracks" between the Australian and NZ civil aviation agencies when the Norfolk Island FSU closed.
And the NZ AIP references would appear to imply that NZ still thinks the FIS responsibility for Norfolk Island lies with Australia.
Is anyone aware of or able to point to the agreement with NZ in which NZ promised to take over FIS responsibility for Norfolk Island?
It's this issue that requires investigation and comment on by the ATSB and, if necessary, be the subject of a safety recommendation so that the appropriate MoU/LoA remedial action, as you have proposed, is implemented between the Australian and NZ agencies so that we don't have a repeat of this situation again in the future.
What else has been "unearthed", only tell me stuff we didn't know before the buffoons in the senate started their stupid inquisition.
Your statement about my cultural heritage and my surmised employer goes to show which one of us is the actual dumbass.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,055
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trolls for Dummies.
Trolls are there to get a rise out of people. They’re not polite and not ashamed getting in a zinger. They call names and make accusations and rarely do they sound anything but angry.
Trolls rarely add anything of value to the conversation. When trolls respond to a community discussion, they don’t add anything meaningful to the discussion. Instead, they joke, berate, and insult.
Trolls rarely add anything of value to the conversation. When trolls respond to a community discussion, they don’t add anything meaningful to the discussion. Instead, they joke, berate, and insult.
When there was a FSU, the FIR boundary I recall was in the vicinity of the island. I believe the FIR boundary was moved west to where it is now quite some years ago.
NF is now some 200NM inside the AK FIR, so the provision of services naturally rests with NZ. The island is Australian territory, but the airspace belongs to/is managed by NZ.
Someone in Airservices would be able to determine if there is a letter of agreement with NZ, and if it makes any mention of NF.
NF is now some 200NM inside the AK FIR, so the provision of services naturally rests with NZ. The island is Australian territory, but the airspace belongs to/is managed by NZ.
Someone in Airservices would be able to determine if there is a letter of agreement with NZ, and if it makes any mention of NF.
Last edited by CaptainMidnight; 22nd Nov 2012 at 06:00. Reason: typo
The fact that there are some foolish people in CASA wasn't unearthed in the senate, it has been common knowledge for over 30 years.
What else has been "unearthed", only tell me stuff we didn't know before the buffoons in the senate started their stupid inquisition.
What else has been "unearthed", only tell me stuff we didn't know before the buffoons in the senate started their stupid inquisition.
I presume, based on the above, that this means you believe that the email traffic between CASA and ATSB that resulted in the printed report being so truncated, compared with the interested party draft, was a matter of public knowledge??
I think not.
Once again, I suggest you read the Hansard on the subject, you could find it enlightening. To say that the honourable Senators were a little skeptical about why most the criticism of CASA and Pel Air were excised, is somewhat of an understatement.
London to a brick Senator Fawcett is more highly qualified and experienced, aviation wise, than you are.
Perhaps you should have Bex, a cup of tea, and a good lie down, before you blow a ffooffle valve.
Tootle pip!!
Last edited by LeadSled; 21st Nov 2012 at 12:32.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: on the edge
Posts: 823
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I presume, based on the above, that this means you believe that the email traffic between CASA and ATSB that resulted in the printed report being so truncated, compared with the interested party draft, was a matter of public knowledge??
The most salient point I got yesterday is whether the weather in the SPECI was correctly received and then interpreted by Dom and the FO.
Regards your bet, I get London and you get the brick
Last edited by blackhand; 22nd Nov 2012 at 00:03.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Alabama, then Wyoming, then Idaho and now staying with Kharon on Styx houseboat
Age: 61
Posts: 1,437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Holiday fun and frivolity
Anyway, does anybody know when Mr Skull is back from annual leave? (And no, not another trip to Montreal, proper annual leave).I know he is away at the moment, not sure if he will come back? I was wondering if he took Beaker with him, maybe they went to the beautiful Norfolk Island for a week? Deep see fishing is great this time of year, you catch Perch, Snapper, even a CVR if you use the correct bait!
Last edited by gobbledock; 22nd Nov 2012 at 08:22. Reason: Getting 'K" a beer while I am on the sideline, sin binned