Norfolk Island Ditching ATSB Report - ?
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What is the value of the board?
It begs the question, if the Senators are left to ask all these questions regarding the performance of CASA, the ATSB and the relationship between the two, what useful purpose do the board serve? Of course other than to make sure the trough doesn't overflow!
Last edited by flying-spike; 5th Nov 2012 at 00:29. Reason: wiped my snout
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Norfolk research data.
In response to requests from interested parties.
Download – The hidden Report.
Download - Pel Air special audit.
P3 a.k.a 3.8 (psig)
Squawk "Problem" if difficulties encounterd.
Download – The hidden Report.
Download - Pel Air special audit.
P3 a.k.a 3.8 (psig)
Squawk "Problem" if difficulties encounterd.
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the right of reply
I feel sorry for Dominic James as he has watched his own execution on this site. He has had the courage to stand up to his convictions publicly and address them. It's well beyond Dominic James and his crew and passengers now. The serious questions have to be asked, as to how we got to this state by the Senate? I'm sure they will.
With the evidence on hand and new evidence I am informed of, its going to look even worse for CASA and the ATSB. Do you have to be responsible as a Chief Pilot for an aviation disaster to get a job as an FOI at CASA?
With the evidence on hand and new evidence I am informed of, its going to look even worse for CASA and the ATSB. Do you have to be responsible as a Chief Pilot for an aviation disaster to get a job as an FOI at CASA?
----- at least you know where the bar has been set.
While I have no knowledge of this individual as an FOI, I have observed what can be called the "poacher turned gamekeeper" syndrome all too often.
In short, now armed with a great deal of power, the newly minted FOI/AWI (usually with a less than stellar record of performance with multiple former employers) sets forth to enforce with great enthusiasm his or her version of extreme interpretations of the regulations.
The one that always gets me is during a flight test, when said FOI demands levels of performance that we know damned well they are not capable.
Tootle pip!!
Last edited by LeadSled; 5th Nov 2012 at 11:44.
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He abandoned his passengers to save his own life! I know of others who have lost theirs saving others.
Last edited by blackhand; 5th Nov 2012 at 12:07. Reason: those dam possessive apostrophes
Very funny .. . . . but what hard, compelling evidence is there that he did not consider the others? It all happened very very suddenly. If you were not there, in my book you are not qualified to pass such terrible judgement.
Wipe up that slur as Grypipe-Fynne once had it.
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While I don't condone what Dominic did, the reality is that if he had not gotten the escape open no one would have got out.
That said, he didn't do what he was supposed to do as pilot in command and that is take responsibility for getting it right . It doesn't have to be in the ops manual or approved by CASA.
The PIC is the last defence in getting things right.
That said, he didn't do what he was supposed to do as pilot in command and that is take responsibility for getting it right . It doesn't have to be in the ops manual or approved by CASA.
The PIC is the last defence in getting things right.
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Cup day
Not only a good day out, but a good day for quietly making nasty announcements and doing dastardly deeds when the 'media' is in the hospitality tent enjoying the free Verve.
There is serious money being bet that the Golden West Mafia cup is being run today, "in parallel". It's a fairly small field of runners as the penalty for winning is the knackers yard; so, the reluctant competitors have to be 'persuaded' to participate. Yes it's a very slow race, but the tactics more than compensate for lack of speed and dash.
I am running the book for both the ministers "High Jump Stakes" and the GWM cup.
5/2 Pot of Pooh. (equal fav).
5/2 Delightful days. (equal fav).
5/3 Gollum.
5/4 Lord Farcry.
4/1 Clerical error.
6/2 I'm a star, see.
6/1 Re-tread kid.
10/1 My Dark duck
Race entries close at 1330 ESST.
There is serious money being bet that the Golden West Mafia cup is being run today, "in parallel". It's a fairly small field of runners as the penalty for winning is the knackers yard; so, the reluctant competitors have to be 'persuaded' to participate. Yes it's a very slow race, but the tactics more than compensate for lack of speed and dash.
I am running the book for both the ministers "High Jump Stakes" and the GWM cup.
5/2 Pot of Pooh. (equal fav).
5/2 Delightful days. (equal fav).
5/3 Gollum.
5/4 Lord Farcry.
4/1 Clerical error.
6/2 I'm a star, see.
6/1 Re-tread kid.
10/1 My Dark duck
Race entries close at 1330 ESST.
Last edited by Kharon; 5th Nov 2012 at 20:48. Reason: Hot favourite "Pulled by Smoko".
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Is this like the Captain of the Concordia, who "accidentally fell" off the ship into a lifeboat and couldn't get back on his ship. If you weren't there how could you know what actually happened there. His subsequent comments that he needed to coordinate the rescue onshore, well?
And if the FO had not regained consciousness? And, her actually finding the exit under those conditions defies the imagination.
We all know how to identify a duck.
Any vestiges of what actually happened lay in the FDR and CVR, both pieces of equipment being mandatory for that VERY purpose, but for reasons that escape me entirely were not recovered. They still may be and it is highly possible they will have recoverable information that will provide some certainty on events.
I suspect Humphrey Appleby might have advised strongly against this, on the age old public service principle of "unless you know what it would reveal don't go there". Since when did cost enter the investigation arena in cases such as this.
It is simply not fair to any of the parties including the pilot.
And if the FO had not regained consciousness? And, her actually finding the exit under those conditions defies the imagination.
We all know how to identify a duck.
Any vestiges of what actually happened lay in the FDR and CVR, both pieces of equipment being mandatory for that VERY purpose, but for reasons that escape me entirely were not recovered. They still may be and it is highly possible they will have recoverable information that will provide some certainty on events.
I suspect Humphrey Appleby might have advised strongly against this, on the age old public service principle of "unless you know what it would reveal don't go there". Since when did cost enter the investigation arena in cases such as this.
It is simply not fair to any of the parties including the pilot.
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PA CASA audit part 2
The PDF document provides an additional 57 pages of audit information. We have redacted the identifying cover letter and the name of the decision maker. This provides the second part of what we believe will a three part report.
Download : PA CASA audit V2.
P1. a.k.a. P1.
Download : PA CASA audit V2.
P1. a.k.a. P1.
Last edited by PAIN_NET; 5th Nov 2012 at 23:46.
Ok trying to get my head around these various versions of the SAR??
First we get the 4 corners 'leaked' version, which is only 44 pages and is apparently missing some 80-90 pages but the upside is it hasn't been redacted and all names, rank and serial numbers are all displayed. This is also the version that the good Senators have got but it isn't the true version. Wonder what the Senators think about that and where does it put it from a legal point of view??
Then we have a FOI released SAR with an additional 59 pages all totally redacted as per the FOI act. Ok so far but there is also now possibly a third version with a further 30 odd pages...hmm could the original version please put up their hand!
(It is interesting to note that if the FOI version has been screwed with then that could be a breach of the FOI Act)
I also note that the 4c version and the FOI version has some adjustments/alterations/deletions, maybe someone has the gear to track those changes? I'm pretty sure the Senators would have an interest in your findings.
First we get the 4 corners 'leaked' version, which is only 44 pages and is apparently missing some 80-90 pages but the upside is it hasn't been redacted and all names, rank and serial numbers are all displayed. This is also the version that the good Senators have got but it isn't the true version. Wonder what the Senators think about that and where does it put it from a legal point of view??
Then we have a FOI released SAR with an additional 59 pages all totally redacted as per the FOI act. Ok so far but there is also now possibly a third version with a further 30 odd pages...hmm could the original version please put up their hand!
(It is interesting to note that if the FOI version has been screwed with then that could be a breach of the FOI Act)I also note that the 4c version and the FOI version has some adjustments/alterations/deletions, maybe someone has the gear to track those changes? I'm pretty sure the Senators would have an interest in your findings.
Last edited by Sarcs; 7th Nov 2012 at 05:59.
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4 Corners or '4 different versions'?
Well I hope that as the games continue, the herrings get bigger and as the Circus gets more desperate the Senators will get more pissed off and then really drop the hammer and call for a royal commission.
I also hope the FAA keep watching this charade unfold and they too open up a can of whoop ass upon Australia, as it seems this is the only way to force change. Then again, one could assume the FAA has it's own hands full:
I also hope the FAA keep watching this charade unfold and they too open up a can of whoop ass upon Australia, as it seems this is the only way to force change. Then again, one could assume the FAA has it's own hands full:
Last edited by gobbledock; 8th Nov 2012 at 06:20.
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Who is doing the slapping?
The Turkey Slapper,
Agenda? WTF?
JetGo? WTF
Turkey Slapper, I think you've been 'turkey slapping' yourself son.
Love your words of wisdom Gobbledock. But do you really have an agenda ? Oh how's things at Jetgo
JetGo? WTF
Turkey Slapper, I think you've been 'turkey slapping' yourself son.
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But what if?
Worth as 're-read'. Be interesting if the FAA, who are supposedly observing all the current pony pooh events, came back and did do the downgrade. That would put a dent in some of QF's international USA plans?
US authorities prepared to downgrade Australia's air safety rating: cable
by: Steve Creedy
From:The Australian
August 31, 201112:05PM
THE US Federal Aviation Administration was worried enough about the availability of trained air safety inspectors and excessive delegation by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority of regulatory functions to airlines that it considered downgrading Australia's safety rating in late 2009, according to a WikiLeaks cable.
The cable from the US Embassy about an FAA audit said that while Australian safety officials seemed committed to overcoming shortcomings before a second visit in April 2010, the possibility of a category downgrade existed and was being taken seriously.
"While the team recognized improvements on previous shortcomings and commended many areas, there remain a few shortcomings, principally a shortage of properly-trained inspectors and excessive delegation of regulatory functions to carriers," it said.
The FAA routinely audits countries whose carriers fly to the United States to ensure they meet appropriate safety criteria. A Category 2 rating means the FAA does not believe a country's safety oversight meets the minimum standards established by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).
The cable said the downgrade to Category 2, the same level as some third world countries, would be worst-case scenario which would entail measures such as freezing of flight operations between the US and Australia at then current levels and terminating code-sharing arrangements.
This would have a had an impact on the Qantas-American Airlines alliance and could have affected V Australia's later attempts top form an alliance with Delta Air Lines.
"CASA officials are not taking this possibility lightly and seem committed to resolve the shortcomings in order to avoid a downgrade," the cable said.
"FAA team members were extremely satisfied with CASA officials' openness and eagerness to make constructive improvements based on the assessment.
"FAA and CASA clearly have a good working relationship and we will monitor progress toward maintaining Category 1 status."
The cable said the FAA would also watch to make sure CASA's efforts enjoyed "adequate support at the ministerial level".
CASA managed to convince the Americans that it was addressing the problems and announced in April last year that Australia had maintained the Category 1 rating.
CASA's director of aviation safety, John McCormick, said at the time the result of the audit was "a positive endorsement" for Australian aviation safety.
"Australia can continue to be very proud of our aviation safety record and the effort we make to maintain that record," Mr McCormick said.
"The audit recognised there had been a past under investment in technical training for CASA staff and supported CASA's current initiatives to provide even more comprehensive technical training," he said.
"A lot of work has been done over the last 12 months investing in technical training and this will continue."
by: Steve Creedy
From:The Australian
August 31, 201112:05PM
THE US Federal Aviation Administration was worried enough about the availability of trained air safety inspectors and excessive delegation by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority of regulatory functions to airlines that it considered downgrading Australia's safety rating in late 2009, according to a WikiLeaks cable.
The cable from the US Embassy about an FAA audit said that while Australian safety officials seemed committed to overcoming shortcomings before a second visit in April 2010, the possibility of a category downgrade existed and was being taken seriously.
"While the team recognized improvements on previous shortcomings and commended many areas, there remain a few shortcomings, principally a shortage of properly-trained inspectors and excessive delegation of regulatory functions to carriers," it said.
The FAA routinely audits countries whose carriers fly to the United States to ensure they meet appropriate safety criteria. A Category 2 rating means the FAA does not believe a country's safety oversight meets the minimum standards established by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).
The cable said the downgrade to Category 2, the same level as some third world countries, would be worst-case scenario which would entail measures such as freezing of flight operations between the US and Australia at then current levels and terminating code-sharing arrangements.
This would have a had an impact on the Qantas-American Airlines alliance and could have affected V Australia's later attempts top form an alliance with Delta Air Lines.
"CASA officials are not taking this possibility lightly and seem committed to resolve the shortcomings in order to avoid a downgrade," the cable said.
"FAA team members were extremely satisfied with CASA officials' openness and eagerness to make constructive improvements based on the assessment.
"FAA and CASA clearly have a good working relationship and we will monitor progress toward maintaining Category 1 status."
The cable said the FAA would also watch to make sure CASA's efforts enjoyed "adequate support at the ministerial level".
CASA managed to convince the Americans that it was addressing the problems and announced in April last year that Australia had maintained the Category 1 rating.
CASA's director of aviation safety, John McCormick, said at the time the result of the audit was "a positive endorsement" for Australian aviation safety.
"Australia can continue to be very proud of our aviation safety record and the effort we make to maintain that record," Mr McCormick said.
"The audit recognised there had been a past under investment in technical training for CASA staff and supported CASA's current initiatives to provide even more comprehensive technical training," he said.
"A lot of work has been done over the last 12 months investing in technical training and this will continue."
Last edited by gobbledock; 8th Nov 2012 at 06:50.
The FAA have only just given Israel back its Category 1 after 2 years of Cat 2. I hope the Gummint is not that arrogant that it thinks it can schmooze its way out of trouble, but then again....
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CASA response to -
Won a slab from the Bar Room Barristers late last night, for the most accurate predictive CASA response statement. "Spot on old chap" they said and ponied up like the Gents they are. "Cheers boys, but why do I have to share it" – "Club POLICY" they gleefully shouted in chorus. Set up good? Oh yes. (expletive deleted).
But even poor old Blind Freddy (P18) could see which way CASA would jump, straight into the deep dark hole. Mick Quinn, Brian Aherne and others did not start off by attacking the man, not a personal attack printed. The CASA response is a silly, desperate, arrogant move really as 'he who must not be named' is well aware; there are skeletons in every human beings cupboard. In fact, the little attacks on Aherne and Quinn serve very well to illustrate the 'mind set' of a discredited, moribund authority furiously attempting a King Canute imitation. I note Messrs A and Q continue to play the ball, not the man with a couple of first class responses, Brava. Well done.
The Davies submission is first rate and well worth the read, sane rational and absolutely no Pony Pooh.
Then there is less than subtle defence of CASA behaviour during the Airtex bun fight, now there are real skeletons and a couple of watch dogs in that cupboard, I imagine the last thing CASA would want would be to draw public attention to that particular event. Considering the circumstances. (Ghosts at weddings. etc.).
But hold, I forgot; we are all delusional criminal fools and it is germane that we be told so. Aye, 'he who knows no shame' is the master of this small universe; just wish he'd go and wave his magic totem somewhere else. I doubt the Senate will swallow it, not again.
Many years ago, my Mama suggested that when you were in a hole, it's better to stop digging. Someone tell the fools, please.
But even poor old Blind Freddy (P18) could see which way CASA would jump, straight into the deep dark hole. Mick Quinn, Brian Aherne and others did not start off by attacking the man, not a personal attack printed. The CASA response is a silly, desperate, arrogant move really as 'he who must not be named' is well aware; there are skeletons in every human beings cupboard. In fact, the little attacks on Aherne and Quinn serve very well to illustrate the 'mind set' of a discredited, moribund authority furiously attempting a King Canute imitation. I note Messrs A and Q continue to play the ball, not the man with a couple of first class responses, Brava. Well done.
The Davies submission is first rate and well worth the read, sane rational and absolutely no Pony Pooh.
Then there is less than subtle defence of CASA behaviour during the Airtex bun fight, now there are real skeletons and a couple of watch dogs in that cupboard, I imagine the last thing CASA would want would be to draw public attention to that particular event. Considering the circumstances. (Ghosts at weddings. etc.).
But hold, I forgot; we are all delusional criminal fools and it is germane that we be told so. Aye, 'he who knows no shame' is the master of this small universe; just wish he'd go and wave his magic totem somewhere else. I doubt the Senate will swallow it, not again.
Many years ago, my Mama suggested that when you were in a hole, it's better to stop digging. Someone tell the fools, please.
Last edited by Kharon; 8th Nov 2012 at 20:08. Reason: I know - but L&H are worth a second look.
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Incompetence!
Spot on Kharon.
I just read the submissions and it troubles me as to why two guys could get it right, but the government with unlimited resources couldn't sort it! The Hearings later this month will be interesting, to say the least!!!
I just read the submissions and it troubles me as to why two guys could get it right, but the government with unlimited resources couldn't sort it! The Hearings later this month will be interesting, to say the least!!!
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Guess which Senate Inquiry!!
Again a little research:
Anyone care to answer???
Senator McLUCAS [To ATSB] —I am quite sure you would have seen Mr Byron’s press release of 4 April, following the report, in which he says, ‘I am unable to accept the conclusion in the ATSB report that CASA contributed to factors that caused the accident.’
In your report you make a number of recommendations to CASA to change a range of practices that they undertake. Given Mr Byron’s view that essentially he disputes those findings, I am concerned as to how you ensure that those recommendations are followed through.
I note you will monitor a number of them.
But I do not want the situation happening again where, as in 2001, you make a recommendation to CASA which they do not act on and as a result we had this tragedy that could have been avoided. I am sorry, that is a very long question but I think you know what I mean.
Mr Bills [ATSB]—Of course we do not want it to happen again either. Because of the time we spent on the report and the evidence we marshalled, we believe we were fair in our conclusions.
But Mr Byron is a free agent.
Our recommendations are not binding, and for a good reason: like other investigators around the world, if our recommendations were binding then we would be the regulator.
In your report you make a number of recommendations to CASA to change a range of practices that they undertake. Given Mr Byron’s view that essentially he disputes those findings, I am concerned as to how you ensure that those recommendations are followed through.
I note you will monitor a number of them.
But I do not want the situation happening again where, as in 2001, you make a recommendation to CASA which they do not act on and as a result we had this tragedy that could have been avoided. I am sorry, that is a very long question but I think you know what I mean.
Mr Bills [ATSB]—Of course we do not want it to happen again either. Because of the time we spent on the report and the evidence we marshalled, we believe we were fair in our conclusions.
But Mr Byron is a free agent.
Our recommendations are not binding, and for a good reason: like other investigators around the world, if our recommendations were binding then we would be the regulator.
Last edited by Up-into-the-air; 9th Nov 2012 at 21:17. Reason: Just easier to see and read and my bolds