Pilot standards decreasing?
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Stationair8
I've done that, its not much fun. Sounds like you have the same problems we do at work. 
Wally MK2.
Thought as much Wally.. sad but true.
Capt Sand Dune
Give that man a cigar 
, unfortunately i think the "Modern" pilot (read newly minted gen Y'er who thinks technology is the bee's knee's) would think otherwise.
Mach082
Agreed, however this thread is about pilots. I know i'm not perfect, but i have the professional courtesy and motivation to learn and always try to do better. I know i've stuffed sequences, but rest assured that i've learnt from that. I cannot say the same for some private pilots however. How many times must you tell someone what a departure report is??
Does anyone else think the issue is because people want to appear "Cool" by having a pilots licence? This whole argument for TAF's to be in plain english. I mean really, is it that hard to learn a few abbreviations? If you don't know them there in the AIP which you can get for free for christ sake.
Speaking of AIP, there's lots of useful tidbits in there private pilots. Please take a read sometime. Free for all, www.airservicesaustralia.com.
Gee i really am cranky today. LOL....
Looks like you live a sheltered life CrankyATC, come and spend some time octa.
Wally MK2.
Simply put it's my belief that getting a pilots license is too easy
Capt Sand Dune
Sounds like more and more people are forgetting that a GPS is a navaid, and that it is the pilot in command who navigates.
, unfortunately i think the "Modern" pilot (read newly minted gen Y'er who thinks technology is the bee's knee's) would think otherwise.Mach082
ATC are far from exempt.
Does anyone else think the issue is because people want to appear "Cool" by having a pilots licence? This whole argument for TAF's to be in plain english. I mean really, is it that hard to learn a few abbreviations? If you don't know them there in the AIP which you can get for free for christ sake.
Speaking of AIP, there's lots of useful tidbits in there private pilots. Please take a read sometime. Free for all, www.airservicesaustralia.com.
Gee i really am cranky today. LOL....
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Cranky,
whilst I agree with you, the muppetry exists at all licence levels not just PPL's, your freshly minted ones probably are the most professional people you will deal with all day....or failing that will at least reveal they could use a little assistance. Even experienced guys can get the simplest task wrong. e.g. I did a flight a few years back, where i had a plan into the system to get into YMEN, but didn't include the leg to get back out for the final leg and home to YCEM. I had actually planned this to be the case so I could practice the procedure of getting out of there without a formal plan in the system. I even got a briefing from the instructor who suggested i attempt it. I still muffed it!!!!
The controller handled it beatifully, but i am sure there were 30 pilots on freq rolling around in thier seats.
(tx) SGE, Details (insert them all)
(tx) EN Tower, SGE thanx for that, let me get a pencil and we'll try again
(no tx) DOH!!!!!!!! i'm SURE i heard the laughter over the sound of the donk.
bugger made me wait 10 mins before coming back to me, despite i learnt the lesson the moment he replied.
Seriously, BOT, i don't think the skills being trained are declining, quite the opposite, but i certainly think that complacency is setting in as experience is gained, and some pilots are not recognising times they should put in the extra effort to be professional.
whilst I agree with you, the muppetry exists at all licence levels not just PPL's, your freshly minted ones probably are the most professional people you will deal with all day....or failing that will at least reveal they could use a little assistance. Even experienced guys can get the simplest task wrong. e.g. I did a flight a few years back, where i had a plan into the system to get into YMEN, but didn't include the leg to get back out for the final leg and home to YCEM. I had actually planned this to be the case so I could practice the procedure of getting out of there without a formal plan in the system. I even got a briefing from the instructor who suggested i attempt it. I still muffed it!!!!
The controller handled it beatifully, but i am sure there were 30 pilots on freq rolling around in thier seats.
(tx) SGE, Details (insert them all)
(tx) EN Tower, SGE thanx for that, let me get a pencil and we'll try again
(no tx) DOH!!!!!!!! i'm SURE i heard the laughter over the sound of the donk.
bugger made me wait 10 mins before coming back to me, despite i learnt the lesson the moment he replied.
Seriously, BOT, i don't think the skills being trained are declining, quite the opposite, but i certainly think that complacency is setting in as experience is gained, and some pilots are not recognising times they should put in the extra effort to be professional.
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but i have the professional courtesy and motivation to learn and always try to do better.
And as for ATC they are usually more than understanding when you have a "blonde moment"......... jaba cleared direct WC and to leave on descent no reprted IFR traffic, in a tone of you ding dong but thats Ok I am covering your a$$.
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Ya can't 'teach' Airmanship really it's acquired as experience is gained.
During the pre-flight briefing of every sortie taught in ADF flying schools, airmanship is discussed, i.e. airmanship points pertinant to that sortie. The idea is to get the student thinking about airmanship every time he/she goes flying.
So can airmanship be "taught"? Yes, but to a limited extent. It is the duty of the instructor to get the student on the right path to learning about airmanship. The rest is up to them.
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Next you'll be saying a watch, contact-covered WAC, set of naviders, a protractor and a chinagraph pencil (with a spare so you can carry out the immediate actions of 'select standby chinagraph') is all you need.
Bloody hell mate, radical stuff!!
Bloody hell mate, radical stuff!!
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Or the pilot of a corporate jet observed 3000ft into controlled airspace without a clearance or a departure report. 'Sorry, I thought the base was F180' (A085)
Or the pilot of a certain king air operator climbing into controlled airspace without a clearance (short staffed and working like a cut cat). This certain king air operator used to have the most professional pilots I've dealt with on staff but lowered the conditions which saw all this experience walk.
Or the pilot of a Mooney (yeah, I know) helping himself to diversions left and right of track without a heads-up or clearance to do so.
Or the pilot of a B738 giving a position report overhead a position when 20nm west of it because he thought he wasn't on radar yet.
Or the pilot of......................
Or the pilot of a certain king air operator climbing into controlled airspace without a clearance (short staffed and working like a cut cat). This certain king air operator used to have the most professional pilots I've dealt with on staff but lowered the conditions which saw all this experience walk.
Or the pilot of a Mooney (yeah, I know) helping himself to diversions left and right of track without a heads-up or clearance to do so.
Or the pilot of a B738 giving a position report overhead a position when 20nm west of it because he thought he wasn't on radar yet.
Or the pilot of......................
'Capt Sand Dune' Yr talking about the ADF re Airmanship, diff story there compared to the world of GA I reckon. I'd like to think that my tax $$$ are being used to produce exceptional airman via the ADF inc teaching Airmanship, something that doesn't get much of a mention in GA due costs.
In GA a freshly minted PVT driver is taught the rules & regs of the air hopefully by the book to get them started on the road to really learning but once out there in the real world where the rule book can't cover it all a pilot has to often think laterally & be courteous , the two main things that make up Airmanship.
"JR" I hear ya buddy re the King Air scenario you mentioned, cost cutting, it's all about $$$$ these days, Govt's simply don't have a clue!
You can make 10 airframes identical but despite all the hairy fairy Human Performances/factors, CRM crap etc etc you can't make 10 pilots the same, there in lies the real challenge for instructors, humans, if it's wreck-able then we'll find a way!.
Wmk2
In GA a freshly minted PVT driver is taught the rules & regs of the air hopefully by the book to get them started on the road to really learning but once out there in the real world where the rule book can't cover it all a pilot has to often think laterally & be courteous , the two main things that make up Airmanship.
"JR" I hear ya buddy re the King Air scenario you mentioned, cost cutting, it's all about $$$$ these days, Govt's simply don't have a clue!
You can make 10 airframes identical but despite all the hairy fairy Human Performances/factors, CRM crap etc etc you can't make 10 pilots the same, there in lies the real challenge for instructors, humans, if it's wreck-able then we'll find a way!.
Wmk2
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WMk2,
I hear ya, and I know where you're coming from. However including "airmanship" as a pre-flight briefing topic should not be the sole preserve of the ADF. I have not instructed in the civvy world, so maybe some (hopefully lots!) of civvy instructors do spend the few minutes (and that's all it is, mostly) talking about the relevant airmanship points during each pre-flight briefings. Surely this would not adversly impact cost.
. This is where adequate supervision should take over. But I'll leave that one for now!
"Courtesy"....now there's a concept that seems to be in short supply!
I hear ya, and I know where you're coming from. However including "airmanship" as a pre-flight briefing topic should not be the sole preserve of the ADF. I have not instructed in the civvy world, so maybe some (hopefully lots!) of civvy instructors do spend the few minutes (and that's all it is, mostly) talking about the relevant airmanship points during each pre-flight briefings. Surely this would not adversly impact cost.
but once out there in the real world
"Courtesy"....now there's a concept that seems to be in short supply!
Back when I was instructing a few years back we certainly discussed airmanship. Hopefully that is still the case.
Courtesy is lacking generally in society and we see it carry over into our little corner of the world sadly.
Courtesy is lacking generally in society and we see it carry over into our little corner of the world sadly.
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This whole argument for TAF's to be in plain english. I mean really, is it that hard to learn a few abbreviations? If you don't know them there in the AIP which you can get for free for christ sake.
Suppose the situation was reversed, and we'd always had both a plain English option as well as the anachronistic WW2 telegraph-era TAFs. What grounds would you have for removing the English option?
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Back when I was instructing a few years back we certainly discussed airmanship. Hopefully that is still the case.
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TEM????
WTF!! just another TLA for the NES to learn, hence we should leave TAF's the way they are, as they are loaded with TLA's.
Its called maintaining commonality
Cheers
Jas
WTF!! just another TLA for the NES to learn, hence we should leave TAF's the way they are, as they are loaded with TLA's.
Its called maintaining commonality
Cheers
Jas
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Dunno what your talking all talking about...
Getting my PPL was the best day of my life:
- No more pesky flight planning
- No more Weight and Balance & fuel calcs
and most importantly...
I'll never have to look at another map again!
In all seriousness, I think that there are a couple of factors that are negatively affecting the amount of flying that new PPL's are doing, which is directly affecting the amount of airmanship they are learning from their experiences, with the main one being the prohibitive cost of aviation. Not an excuse, just a reason!
Getting my PPL was the best day of my life:
- No more pesky flight planning
- No more Weight and Balance & fuel calcs
and most importantly...
I'll never have to look at another map again!
In all seriousness, I think that there are a couple of factors that are negatively affecting the amount of flying that new PPL's are doing, which is directly affecting the amount of airmanship they are learning from their experiences, with the main one being the prohibitive cost of aviation. Not an excuse, just a reason!
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Not sure I agree there OerFeinD.
Most ppl's upon completion have the money to continue flying regularily, advancing and consolidating their skills. It's what happens down the track that makes the difference.
I'll use myself as an example.
Finished GFPT.
while waiting for a PPL theory course, added CSU/Retract (arrow)
finished PPL.
did a few hours
Added Twin ticket. Tavelair/baron
did a heap more hours.
added MENVFR.
By adding ratings, i was able to avoid Flight reviews.
My last couple of flight reviews have been challenges to decide what we would do, as I had been covering everything in my general flying. I might have dissapeared for some long range navs (trips) and then come home and flown the next week and done some general airwork(just to go flying), always refining my skills.
At one point I was even spending (a lot) time imparting my theoretical knowledge to others.
On an average, I was chalking up about 150 hrs a year as a ppl, mostly in high performance a/c. Even building my night hours, although the frequency was almost annual. I'd goto the local field with lights, and do some refresher training, then waffle up to YSHT for the annual pilgrimage and do a night nav out of there.
It is the pilots a little bit later on that seem to get into trouble, they get complacent, which gets compounded by a lower lack of funding to maintain the hours per year they had been doiing, and then the things they get away with in their general OCTA jaunts, when the pressure comes on in CTA they fail...but they are signed off to do it. I guess we really rely on the guys doing their BFR's to identify this stuff. I guess a good pilot will use the same instructor (yes i have that luxury) to do their BFR's so at least that instructor can review what was done last time
I am one of those pilots that is probably in a 'danger zone'. Driving the bus comes naturally to me, but my recent logged hours are low. And this part is all airmanship, I recognise it and respect the fact. I'm due for a BFR, and if i got signed off tomorrow, there is no way I would head the YBDV without a GPS like i have done in the past.
Even tho in the last 2-3 years my logged hours have been low, I have been able to maintain many of my skills, because of the aeroclub environment I live in. I've assisted the PIC by doing all the nav/flight planning tasks. Flown with guys as an observer pilot, discussing with them their decisions, radio calls etc, attempting to keep my knowledge drain to a minimum.
Airmanship starts with attitude!
For the first time ever, I have been able to identify something I am not comfortable with and tell my BFR guy, i think we need to do this, rather than have him decide.
Crux of the story is, not all pilots are forward thinking, and yelling at the rest over the radio won't help
Cheers
Jas
Most ppl's upon completion have the money to continue flying regularily, advancing and consolidating their skills. It's what happens down the track that makes the difference.
I'll use myself as an example.
Finished GFPT.
while waiting for a PPL theory course, added CSU/Retract (arrow)
finished PPL.
did a few hours
Added Twin ticket. Tavelair/baron
did a heap more hours.
added MENVFR.
By adding ratings, i was able to avoid Flight reviews.
My last couple of flight reviews have been challenges to decide what we would do, as I had been covering everything in my general flying. I might have dissapeared for some long range navs (trips) and then come home and flown the next week and done some general airwork(just to go flying), always refining my skills.
At one point I was even spending (a lot) time imparting my theoretical knowledge to others.
On an average, I was chalking up about 150 hrs a year as a ppl, mostly in high performance a/c. Even building my night hours, although the frequency was almost annual. I'd goto the local field with lights, and do some refresher training, then waffle up to YSHT for the annual pilgrimage and do a night nav out of there.
It is the pilots a little bit later on that seem to get into trouble, they get complacent, which gets compounded by a lower lack of funding to maintain the hours per year they had been doiing, and then the things they get away with in their general OCTA jaunts, when the pressure comes on in CTA they fail...but they are signed off to do it. I guess we really rely on the guys doing their BFR's to identify this stuff. I guess a good pilot will use the same instructor (yes i have that luxury) to do their BFR's so at least that instructor can review what was done last time
I am one of those pilots that is probably in a 'danger zone'. Driving the bus comes naturally to me, but my recent logged hours are low. And this part is all airmanship, I recognise it and respect the fact. I'm due for a BFR, and if i got signed off tomorrow, there is no way I would head the YBDV without a GPS like i have done in the past.
Even tho in the last 2-3 years my logged hours have been low, I have been able to maintain many of my skills, because of the aeroclub environment I live in. I've assisted the PIC by doing all the nav/flight planning tasks. Flown with guys as an observer pilot, discussing with them their decisions, radio calls etc, attempting to keep my knowledge drain to a minimum.
Airmanship starts with attitude!
For the first time ever, I have been able to identify something I am not comfortable with and tell my BFR guy, i think we need to do this, rather than have him decide.
Crux of the story is, not all pilots are forward thinking, and yelling at the rest over the radio won't help
Cheers
Jas
Bit like the CTAF(R) call, all stations XYZ inbound.
Someone correct me if I am wrong but just as we all got used to preceding a broadcast with "traffic bullamakanka", the AIP has reverted to "All Stations"?
No wonder so many people have trouble getting it right.As to the original question, a very wise CFI explained to me recently that there is a new breed of PPL trainees coming through the system. "I give you lots of cash - you give me PPL". Try instilling airmanship into a mindset like that.
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a very wise CFI explained to me recently that there is a new breed of PPL trainees coming through the system.
Try instilling airmanship into a mindset like that.
I reckon there are 2 types of students. Those who want a licence and those who want to learn to fly. I had break from instructing between 2002 to 2004. When I returned in '04, most of the students were only interested in doing the bare minimum for whatever training they were doing.
Used to get asked all the time, "what's the minimum I gotta do for....". Everything from PPL through to MECIR.
Don't get me started on the LAZY, LYING, CHEATING, MINIMUM EFFORT international students. Just before I finished in aviation earlier this year, one of them was leaving us to go to the Florida. Why? Because he said it was easier to get a licence over there and that we were asking for too higher standard. That's what you end up teaching.
Pilot's need to take a bit more pride in their work.
A lot of recent generation of instructors are just bad. Especially the sausage factory products with their cookie cutter production line degrees. "I have the (minimum)hours for my grade 2/1, can you sign my test form?" or "Can Ol'mate and I do half ICUS half PIC in Seminole for the META 50 hours PIC. The test form say we can." Why only the minimum, why not a higher standard!
Like ol' mate Cranky, I know i'm not perfect, but i have the professional motivation to learn and always do things better.
Aim for higher standards, not just the
MINIMUM!Actually learn the stuff correctly. Ask why is it done this way, not just "because I was told to do it that way" or "because that's what we did GFS/Oxford".
Landing on centreline - it's OK the paint is
dry, you wont' wreck it!Radio calls - Get it right from the black and white. Not once have I seen written anywhere "TURNS base, TURNS final.
It use to frustrate the
out of me with full time students whose currency should'nt be a problem at this stage, see there standards drop down to barely that of a pre-solo PPL student. Like VH-XXX said - LAZINESS.Those who fly for a hobby. I understand, family comes first with your time and dollars, so recency can be an issue. Try take advantage of the Airservices info nights. Some aeroclub's have right hand seat night to help keep your knowledge up to speed as well. Each flight you do, have an objective of a standard you want to improve. Be it circuits or DR nav.
I was a career instructor. I was very passionate about teaching people to fly and helping them succeed in their choosen hobby or career. The Macdonald's mentally in society attitude took it's toll on my enthusiasm. Maybe having a stroke was blessing in disguise. Now that I am out of the industry, I'm much more relaxed these days.
For the rest of still in aviation....
Good luck, and don't
it up!In-cog-nito, signing off.
P.S. Yeah I know what you think. All sounds like B.S. I used to get that a lot
Last edited by in-cog-nito; 8th Oct 2011 at 02:55.
Bravo that man!
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Standard phraseology is the MINIMUM to create understanding, if it aids the situational awareness of other aircraft then additional information is valid provided it is concise and limited to the operational situation.
Airmanship requires all to "look out" for others and this doesn't mean with just your eyes.
Airmanship requires all to "look out" for others and this doesn't mean with just your eyes.