ABC Helicopter crash near Lake Eyre
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Perth - Western Australia
Age: 75
Posts: 1,805
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No mention or indication of any bird carcass or bones in the burnt remains being found, thus seemingly reducing the bird-strike theory.
The drummed fuel from which the resupply was drawn that afternoon is noted as an important point of further examination. Drummed fuel always contains an increased risk of contamination.
I'm somewhat surprised that nowhere can I find any mention of autopsies having been done, particularly on the pilot. Perhaps the fire was too intense? I see where a "review" of the medical status of the pilot is on the cards.
Perhaps the investigators are looking to find clues, that they couldn't find via an autopsy?
A BIL related to me how he "died" from a heart attack. He was feeling a little nauseous and had pins and needles in his arms and chest... so, with a history of heart problems, he decided to be driven to hospital by his wife.
He walked into the hospital lobby and had a major heart attack, right as he walked in.
He related how his vision just went, as his peripheral vision just closed in, and his vision narrowed to a pinpoint, then blackness. He hit the floor, effectively dead. The ER crew rushed out and revived him, and he lives still, but on a cocktail of pills.
He said what amazed him, was how suddenly he dropped, like a poleaxed steer, within a couple of seconds. No chance to do anything, reach out, or break his fall. Bang, you're gone, just like that.
The drummed fuel from which the resupply was drawn that afternoon is noted as an important point of further examination. Drummed fuel always contains an increased risk of contamination.
I'm somewhat surprised that nowhere can I find any mention of autopsies having been done, particularly on the pilot. Perhaps the fire was too intense? I see where a "review" of the medical status of the pilot is on the cards.
Perhaps the investigators are looking to find clues, that they couldn't find via an autopsy?
A BIL related to me how he "died" from a heart attack. He was feeling a little nauseous and had pins and needles in his arms and chest... so, with a history of heart problems, he decided to be driven to hospital by his wife.
He walked into the hospital lobby and had a major heart attack, right as he walked in.
He related how his vision just went, as his peripheral vision just closed in, and his vision narrowed to a pinpoint, then blackness. He hit the floor, effectively dead. The ER crew rushed out and revived him, and he lives still, but on a cocktail of pills.
He said what amazed him, was how suddenly he dropped, like a poleaxed steer, within a couple of seconds. No chance to do anything, reach out, or break his fall. Bang, you're gone, just like that.
Last edited by onetrack; 16th Sep 2011 at 03:08.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An autopsy was probably not an option. Don't believe all that you see when you are watching CSI.
I recently spoke with a pilot whom shared a cold one with the pilot a few weeks before the accident. It was stated that the pilot believe it or not, had little outback flying experience under NVFR. It seems like a coincidence that this was discussed, however this outback trip was discussed as it was upcoming as the pilot he was talking to sometimes operates out of the Marree area. Either way the full reason may never be known and the logbooks could quickly disprove this.
I recently spoke with a pilot whom shared a cold one with the pilot a few weeks before the accident. It was stated that the pilot believe it or not, had little outback flying experience under NVFR. It seems like a coincidence that this was discussed, however this outback trip was discussed as it was upcoming as the pilot he was talking to sometimes operates out of the Marree area. Either way the full reason may never be known and the logbooks could quickly disprove this.
Yeah for the last 25 years I have thought about Tice at the controls of the ABC chopper and I just worried about his lack of night flying experience.
...not!
...not!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surprised to hear comments like that from you HLB given your profession. Considering all of the recent press from CASA particularly around NVFR helicopter operations, the lack of a visible horizon in such conditions and first hand recent conversations between the pilot about his experience in this scenario, it doesn't take much to see what the result will likely be. If SAR operators in a B206 can get it wrong, so can a chartered Squirrel.
XXX,
One swallow does not a summer make and a comment or conversation such as that is not a smoking gun.
In my experience the potential threat or error that you are worried about is less likely to be the one that kills you. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would find it very surprising considering (as others have stated) his military background.
I am trying desperately to avoid saying "let the ATSB work it out and stop speculating"
One swallow does not a summer make and a comment or conversation such as that is not a smoking gun.
In my experience the potential threat or error that you are worried about is less likely to be the one that kills you. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would find it very surprising considering (as others have stated) his military background.
I am trying desperately to avoid saying "let the ATSB work it out and stop speculating"
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 16th Sep 2011 at 10:23. Reason: trying to stop being a pompous bombastic arsehole all the time.
Oh dear! Blessed are the big noters!
Sunfish. Name your source.
Are you going to tell us the cause of the crash.... based on your source!
Have some respect for the family and friends of those who are no longer able to speak for themselves.
Show some restraint, please!
Sunfish. Name your source.
Are you going to tell us the cause of the crash.... based on your source!
Have some respect for the family and friends of those who are no longer able to speak for themselves.
Show some restraint, please!
Hey XXX I'm perfectly happy to be wrong. My ego can handle it. I'll even admit it in public and occasionally *gasp* on PPRuNe.
*shrug*
*shrug*
It was stated that the pilot believe it or not, had little outback flying experience under NVFR.
DF.
Then you think a person with so much experience would have the respect to keep his opinions to himself with no evidence.
A ex military pilot with minimal understanding of night flight and the risks with it? Thats not to say that a mistake was made, but to say someone with that much time and background doesn't understand the risk, what by product of cow grazing that statement is
That light flashing in the corner of your eye......
A ex military pilot with minimal understanding of night flight and the risks with it? Thats not to say that a mistake was made, but to say someone with that much time and background doesn't understand the risk, what by product of cow grazing that statement is
That light flashing in the corner of your eye......
As an ex-Army aviator he would have, I would think, approached to numerous single light sources / T aids on black nights in the bush.
Can someone please tell me how he was legally allowed to depart from an unlit area at night? Did the intended destination tick all the boxes re; lighting, navaids etc? I'm not drawing any conclusions as to the cause of the accident (i've got my own opinions), but I question what they were doing at that particular location in the darkies and departing (apparently) from an unlit area.
Then the next question is what category of operation was the flight considered (PVT, AWK, CHTR)? I would bet the farm on it being CHTR, even if ABC owned the machine themselves.
What does their ops manual allow and what equipment was required?
I honestly ponder whether the tragic outcome would've been different if they had just overnighted with the tour group.
Last edited by havick; 17th Sep 2011 at 02:16.
That may be true Arm Out the Window, but how long ago was that? How current is he conducting those type of operations, and was there a light source from where he departed?
Can someone please tell me how he was legally allowed to depart from an unlit area at night? Did the intended destination tick all the boxes re; lighting, navaids etc? I'm not drawing any conclusions as to the cause of the accident (i've got my own opinions), but I question what they were doing at that particular location in the darkies and departing (apparently) from an unlit area.
Then the next question is what category of operation was the flight considered (PVT, AWK, CHTR)? I would bet the farm on it being CHTR, even if ABC owned the machine themselves.
What does their ops manual allow and what equipment was required?
I honestly ponder whether the tragic outcome would've been different if they had just overnighted with the tour group.
Can someone please tell me how he was legally allowed to depart from an unlit area at night? Did the intended destination tick all the boxes re; lighting, navaids etc? I'm not drawing any conclusions as to the cause of the accident (i've got my own opinions), but I question what they were doing at that particular location in the darkies and departing (apparently) from an unlit area.
Then the next question is what category of operation was the flight considered (PVT, AWK, CHTR)? I would bet the farm on it being CHTR, even if ABC owned the machine themselves.
What does their ops manual allow and what equipment was required?
I honestly ponder whether the tragic outcome would've been different if they had just overnighted with the tour group.
DF.
http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...s/ops/92_2.pdf
scroll down and read page 5, 6 and 7.
in a nutshell, there's two types of helicopter landing sites;
- Basic HLS
- Standard HLS
Basic HLS's cannot be used for night operations.
Standard HLS has a host of req's for night operations, the thing that stares me in the face with regard to this accident is did the area that VH-NTV was departing from at night conform to the requirements of a standard HLS (read; lighting).
There are dispensations given to operators operate outside the bounds of the caap, usually EMS/SAR. But even then, the aircraft is equipped accordingly as well as other fuel/lighting requirements regarding to the destination etc (standard alternate minima).
I couldn't see the ABC ops manual having these dispensations, nor would the VH-NTV be fitted with the equipment required to depart from a basic HLS at night. Feel free to correct me here someone that has flown for ABC before.
** Doesn't explain the 'cause' of the accident, but still makes me wonder what they were doing there in the first place.
scroll down and read page 5, 6 and 7.
in a nutshell, there's two types of helicopter landing sites;
- Basic HLS
- Standard HLS
Basic HLS's cannot be used for night operations.
Standard HLS has a host of req's for night operations, the thing that stares me in the face with regard to this accident is did the area that VH-NTV was departing from at night conform to the requirements of a standard HLS (read; lighting).
There are dispensations given to operators operate outside the bounds of the caap, usually EMS/SAR. But even then, the aircraft is equipped accordingly as well as other fuel/lighting requirements regarding to the destination etc (standard alternate minima).
I couldn't see the ABC ops manual having these dispensations, nor would the VH-NTV be fitted with the equipment required to depart from a basic HLS at night. Feel free to correct me here someone that has flown for ABC before.
** Doesn't explain the 'cause' of the accident, but still makes me wonder what they were doing there in the first place.
I'd be very surprised if it was charter
I suppose the category itself doesn't really make too much of a difference as it would either be AWK or CHTR. The aircraft was a twin and at least certified NVFR as a minimum.
The CAAP (HLS) doesn't differentiate between category anyway, which really is the point I was trying to make.
The CAAP (HLS) doesn't differentiate between category anyway, which really is the point I was trying to make.
Last edited by havick; 17th Sep 2011 at 08:29.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sometimes I wonder why military experience is so highly regarded amongst pilots. Was it Virgin that landed at Lord Howe not long after the RAAF 737 did several go-arounds and headed home?